(no subject)

[tutustombstones.livejournal.com]

My mother is sitting here and telling me that the name of the Lolita fashion came from a book in the 1950's where a man begins to lust after his young stepdaughter.

Would anyone here like to explain to her the origin of the name and how it doesn't do with this? Or does it? She's making it out to be like many people do; some sort of fetish. I know there is an actual fetish for young women, but is the fashion of EGL named after that? The name Lolita itself means a sexually pretenious young girl. Yet 'Lola' derives from sorrowful.

I guess I'm basically asking if the fashion Lolita is named after this novel.

Comments

[emotionreader.livejournal.com]

Lolita is a book... but it also means 'young' in many other languages, so it can't be the origin.

[tutustombstones.livejournal.com]

She's making it sound perverted. Some man lusting after his young step-daughter. Lolita isn't a fetish. Do you know what language Lolita means young in? Japanese I'm supposing?

[kyouketsusha.livejournal.com]

Lolita is a diminutive of 'Lola' which means 'Sorrowful.' But Lolita in the book is short for Dolores, though the name means 'Lady of Sorrows' which is obviously very similar.

The book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679723161/qid=1127428796/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-1637845-1596163?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) is very good, and I recommend it, though it may not be for everyone.

So your mother is sort of right.

But I think the Japanese use it to mean a kind of child-adult, with the innocence of a child but the mind of an adult; much different than the Western view of the lascivious youngster. Neither and both are the same as the Lo in the book.

[tutustombstones.livejournal.com]

So is the fashion named after the book?

[silentsecret428.livejournal.com]

okay


my take on this...


Lolita by vladmir portrays a young girl loving an older man...=> japanese go... lolita must be the young girl!.... lolita is a young girl! the fashion lolita is chosen to express a young girl's appearance... lolita= the fashion statement.


Hence following the lolita lifestyle to me... wouldn't exist... since the lifestyle could be labelled under many other things... i think the peter pan thingo?

[tutustombstones.livejournal.com]

But the definition of Lolita is a sexually pretenious girl. So do you think that the whole fashion is derived from that name?

[sukeban.livejournal.com]

Well... technically, it does begin with Nabokov's novel Lolita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolita), filthered through the Japanese obsession with cuteness and youthful innocence (i.e. rorikon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorikon) = lolita complex) and rather desexualized in the process. Basically, it started with Japanese clothing Pink House brand decided to cuteify (cutificate?) housewives with Victorian- looking poofy dresses in what is now known as classic lolita - gothic lolita came a bit later when Mana invented the fashion.

(Rest of lolis out there: If I'm off the mark, please correct me!)

[tutustombstones.livejournal.com]

I just didn't know if the novel was named after something or the whole fashion named after the novel.

[miou-vicioso.livejournal.com]

Hm, do you have any other information about Pink House (starting the fashion, and approximately when)? I was always told it was the brand Heart E until now. I checked PH's website, but it was tricky featuring this season's trends - Victorian/Edwardian/1920's did became popular now... :}
I'd appriciate any tidbit of info.

[charcoal-pirate.livejournal.com]

actually, i'm japanese and my mother says the same. i do think it is a bit of a fetish, but it has grown into a fashion trend, that doesn't really imply any kind of sexual meaning. and lolita doesn't mean, young in japanese or in japanese slang either just so you know.^^

[tutustombstones.livejournal.com]

Thank you ^^

[jinyo.livejournal.com]

As I understand, the terms Elegant Gothic Lolita and Elegant Gothic Aristocrat were both coined by Mana. So I suppose one would have to ask him why he chose to use the word "Lolita," what he meant by it, and what implications the term "Lolita" has in Japan (nuances may be very different there).

Here's an article about EGL which may help your mother understand:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elegant_gothic_lolita

[ae-gaaru.livejournal.com]

eh eh!!! take it easy!!
LOLITA comes from spanish ok? ^^
And it means little girl ^^... and it is not a pervert word or something like that. I say fo my friends "lolita" and is very normal and accepted... ok?o.o....

[tutustombstones.livejournal.com]

It does come from Spanish but is also a type of porn, so is a common misconception among Americans.. at least, 99% I have met not online.

[angry-chick.livejournal.com]

The term Lolita, like other Japanese terms borrowed from other cultures, merely means "little girl." Also, Lolita, Lo, and Lola are shortened names for Dolores. My niece is named Dolores, and we call her "Lo" or "Lolita".

Lolita in Japan has NO sexual undertones. In fact, it it clearly mean to be unsexy. (Unless you are talking about Ero-Lolita, which is in fact a subculture beneath a subculture)

Lolitas take pride in being very precisely groomed and immaculately mannered/behaved. Our intent is more of a doll-like image - to capture it's innocence. Lolita in America, unfortunately, is a term that used to be harmless, but due to this novel, has ended up becoming a twisted slang term.

Don't worry too much - we are asked about this all the time. It's okay.

[tutustombstones.livejournal.com]

I figured it was such, but she didn't believe me so I needed the knowledged to back me up. Thank you.

[chibiechibbiusa.livejournal.com]

Japanese people are NOT sensitive to ALL the beliefs, traditions, and cultures of the West.

I mean, come on, there is a Japanese subculture that derives from Nazi uniforms for Christ's sake. They don't understand how that could be taken offensively. They just think it's cool and fashionable.

Your mother needs to understand that things literally do get LOST IN TRANSLATION.

The Japanese do not understand the negative connotations of the word "lolita."

In fact, calling the style "Gothic and Lolita" is just supposed to make the style seem "cooler" in the Japanese scheme of things because it's a name derived from Western terms and this style is Western influenced.

So no, "gothic and lolita" was NOT taken from the book Lolita. And no, the title "Lolita" is not the first instance / creation of the word and its only meaning. Lolita originally meant young (like comments above already acknowledged). Then, because of the book mainly (and probably other things), it got negative connotions (kind of like the word gay). The Japanese have ignored or just NOT NOTICED this second step and are using lolita as a flowery term for "young." It just sounds better to them.

Obviously, the gothic and lolitas of Japan are not dressing up to attract horny, perverted men. That's a duh. They just think they're style is beautiful and unique (among other things). But there are perverts for everything these days. People that get turned on by feet. People that get turned on by milk. Even people that get turned on by shitting out barbie doll heads (Wonder of the World anyone??). Okay, this is getting off topic.

The point is that EVERYTHING can be perversed nowdays but that is not a focus of the Japanese subculture gothic and lolita (and well, milk, and barbies, and feet). I mean obviously, you should have already known that, but now you can logically argue it with your mother (who's assumptive ignorance surprises me).

[tutustombstones.livejournal.com]

Most mothers I've heard of tend to think they know everything, but thank you for your post, I can rub it in now!

[lucifersmurder.livejournal.com]

no, no, no, my dear, this is strictly fashion.

[aieraelyn-sable.livejournal.com]

This all gets back to what meaning people put to words and taking back words. I get a lot of ignorant your going to burn in hell crap from otherwise good people when they find out I'm a wiccan or a witch. Doesn't mean I'm going to stop using the term. Bitch litterally means a female dog, but the way you use that term gives it it's meaning. The best thing you can really do is keep imformed, show your mother by example. She'll get it or she won't. YOu can't change other people, only your reaction to them.

[pandaemonaeum.livejournal.com]

In the book (and it is a good idea for people to actually READ it so they can discuss it when asked questions about the fashion) the young girl is sexually promiscuous and seduces an older teacher.

That's so not how I read 'Lolita', but everyone has their own take on the novel :)

[kitzune.livejournal.com]

::points to icon:: Lolita from the latest edition of the movie.

In short-

Lolita, the name, was forever changed by the book. If you say "Lolita" chances are good, the person you're talking to will respond with, "Pervert!" when the book was, in fact, art for arts sake. Nabokov's goal was to write a book, using English, which is not his native language, and to do it from the point of the pedophile. Many people who read the book fall for it! They sympathize with who should rightly be a villain and think that Lolita deserved what she gets, which she doesn't, because damnit, she's like 12 years old!

I might point out that if you're looking for something raunchy, Lolita is not it. There's lots and lots and lots and looooooots and lots of sex (and one memorable masturbation scene) but it's all described in very flowery language. Nabokov was good at that.

So, fast forward. Lolita has now come to mean, through the twisting that all Americans are good at, a girl who is young but acts older, especially in regards to her sexuality. With young being the keyword here.

Gothic Lolita does indeed originate from the book, and anyone who tells you otherwise is in denial, probably because they never read the book and are only reacting to the horrible reputation the book has. (It's a well written book!) Gothic we already know. Lolita refers to how the style is very childish in appearance. At the same time...I think the style is pretty sexy as well. In a childish way. And of course, the Japanese are all about the "Lolita Complex."

[cuntella.livejournal.com]

ANYTHING can be fetished, that doesn't mean it can't be taken at face value. Unless you want to walk through a grocery store or a high school that uses uniforms and think "omg sex".

And yeah, as other people have mentioned. Gothic Lolita and Lolita in general is fetished, I've seen lots of hentai and porn with it, but from what I saw in Japan it is, on the streets, JUST a clothing style.

[eristell-neko.livejournal.com]

Originaly, back before Nabokov even thought of the book, Lolita was a name or nickname given to girls. It means 'sorrowfull'. It's even in my 'name your baby' book. After Nabokov wrote his book, complete and total morons decided to twist the name's meaning into meaning a young girl who is very sexualy oriented. It is often used in the porn industry to mean underage or barely leagal girls. In all actuality, the 'Lolita' in Nabokov's book was a girl whose stepfather married her mother to be near her. He was very facinated with her, and after a while he seduced her. The girl herself didn't realy know much better, because before her stepfather came along she, like many young girls in that time period, lead very sheltered lives. Parents wouldn't talk about sex with their cildren and it wasn't in the media as much as it is today. I must admit that the modorn definiton of the word in western culture does come from the book, unfourtunately. People are idiots. They have a tendacy to twist pretty much innocent things into perverted things (just about every preteen to teenage boy does it.) The problem is people don't relize that eastren countries, ie Japan and China, have a tendacy to borrow words from weastern languages without keeping their meaning. The japanese word for 'lolita fetish' is 'roricon' a contraction of the words 'lolita' and 'complex' but using japanese pronounciation. As has been stated before, the japanese see lolita as meaning a 'young, cute girl' not 'a sexualy active girl', so 'roricon' is 'having a fetish for young, cute girls', while the fashion 'gosurori' or 'rorita' means 'dressing like a young, cute girl.' It is just like how english has borrowed words from other languages, or words evolve into meaning diffrent things. For instance the word 'fuck' originaly meant 'to plant a seed in the ground. It has now evolved into a synonym for 'sex'. 'Faggot' origianly meant 'a bundle of sticks' and now is a derogitory word for a homosexual person. Here (US), a napkin is a peice of cloth or paper we use to clean our mouth and hands off while eating food, but in England it is a female hygenie product. Words mean diffrent things in diffrent areas of the world.
Also, as cuntella said, ANYTHING can be fetishised. If you wore a burlap sack all the time, someone, somewhere will find it sexy and probably would make porn of it.
PS: Sorry if I sound a bit English-class-ish. Just wanted to give examples.

[pandaemonaeum.livejournal.com]

In all actuality, the 'Lolita' in Nabokov's book was a girl whose stepfather married her mother to be near her. He was very facinated with her, and after a while he seduced her. The girl herself didn't realy know much better, because before her stepfather came along she, like many young girls in that time period, lead very sheltered lives.

THAT'S how I read Lolita. It is a testament to Nabokov's writing that even today, people sympathise with the villain of the piece, and condemn the victim (Lolita) in their heads. Even her name ('Sorrowful') is a clue; the novel is wonderfully richly layered with meaning. In effect, Nabokov wrote a novel about a paedophile from the paedophile's point of view. And he makes you take the paedophile's side all the way through the novel. Lolita is exploited and used, yet still we use her name to describe adolescent sensuality.

[clawdine]

Lolita can mean two things in Japan.
1) the fashion (which has NOTHING to do with the fetish because supposedly men hate girls who dress in lolita fashion, they think it's weird)

2) Young girl, in a sexual way. Think of girls with sailor uniforms and loose socks. In Japan, men like girls like that. They pay money to have sex with them. It's called lolicon (rorikon) which means lolita complex, which is they have a fetish for young girls.

Hope that helps.

In the gothic and lolita Bible, lolita fashion is spelt as rori-ta. (ロリータ）But on the internet, lolita fashion is spelt as roriita instead, （ロリイタ）as compared to the fetish which is referred to as rori-ta (ロリータ) on the internet. It's confusing but you'll get used to it. :)

[tutustombstones.livejournal.com]

Hmm.. explains a lot. Thank you very much

[happydominatrix.livejournal.com]

My take on this is that yes, the word 'Lolita' was taken from the novel - but not in the way many people mistakenly think. I don't feel that it was taken from the title of the novel, but rather, it was taken from the name of the girl in the novel. In terms of the fashion, it is definitely not meant to imply that there is some kind of sexual fetish going on. The character Lolita was a young, attractive girl - yes, there was sex, but the book wasn't about sex, and even when sex occurs, it's not exactly graphic in the way most people are thinking of. As others have already mentioned, 'Lolita' is just a word for 'a young (attractive) girl,' but people enjoy twisting things out of context, and after this book was published, people did just that: they twisted the word out of context. The word evolved to have a different connotation, but for whatever reason, that connotation never made it to Japan.

I guess the answer to your question is 'yes' and 'no' at the same time. In a way, it was, but with regards to the fashion it really doesn't have that kind of a meaning to it at all.