A little perspective...
Jul. 18th, 2003 03:43 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
zoloft.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
egl_archiveInteresting to see all of the (sometimes rather vehement) opinions on the potential Americanization of egl. The main arguments against such a thing happening seem to run along the lines of "America won't get the fasion 'right'" & "American people won't understand the sweetness & innocence of 'true' egl". Both arguments are myopic.
Fashion, by its very nature, is a changeable thing. Even "real" egl in Japan isn't a static creature. All you have to do is to objectively compare GLB's #1 & #9 to see what I mean. More importantly, the Japanese fashion trend is based on Western memes. Think about it: if egl were uniquely Eastern in nature, why describe it with exclusively Western words? Yes, the Japanese designers have put their own spin on the clothes they're making, but it's still their interpretation of Western gothic, punk, kinderwhore, etc. styles. So, if Japan can borrow from us, why can't we borrow from them? Why is it "cool" when the Japanese warp an existing style to their own liking, but reprehensible when Americans borrow that interpretation & alter it again? You may
not personally like the new interpretation, & that's fine... but I'm failing to see why its very existence should be so offensive.
As for those of you who don't think that Japanese loli's are sexual, you're kidding yourselves. Remember, they're in an entirely different culture. I'm the first to admit that I'm far from an expert on anything Japanese, but a minimal amount of research will tell you that Japanese men traditionally dislike strong women. The whole "kawaii" culture (and by that I mean grown women dressing/acting like children) grew out of a need to objectify women, to make them submissive, unthreatening, & (at least pretending to be) out of touch with their own sexuality. Egl can be seen as being just a rather extravagant extension of the schoolgirl uniform that's been fetishized pretty much forever. No, I'm not saying that all (or even most) Japanese loli's dress the way they do in order to purposefully be attractive to older men, just that the culture in which they've been raised makes women/girls dressing up as much younger women/girls to be a highly desirable thing.
Now, compare that to America, with our bazillion talk shows about 12 yr olds wearing tons of makeup & dressing like the proverbial "hoochie mama". Clearly, we've got an entirely different set of cultural issues. ;P
As for the whole "showing skin" issue... let's compare porn. ;D Take an issue of Dr. Picasso & compare it to Playboy (arguably the most popular & almost w/o doubt the tamest of American smut mags). In Playboy, you've got very mature-looking ("mature" as in "over the age of consent", not "old") women, in very revealing clothing or stark naked, striking rather provocative poses (at least through our eyes).
Now, look at Dr. Picasso: yes, there is some full nudity, but it tends to be along the lines of "Oops! I'm naked! Hee hee!", rather than the American "Come give it to me hard, stud". Most of the models in Dr. Picasso are actually shot in rather conservative, full-backed bikini (whereas if you see a bathing suit in Playboy, it's almost invariably of the "pasties & dental floss" variety). Dr. Picasso also gives you a *lot* of panty shots, & an awful lot of girls (and they do look like girls, not women), in fetal positions. And let's not even get started on the monthly "snap" feature of Dr. P, which includes shots of random schoolgirls (IIRC, usually between the ages of 15 & 17) w/ some basic stats (name, age, bloodtype) listed. True, they're all completely clothed in their schoolgirl uniforms, but the fact of the matter is that their pictures are published in a very popular *porn* magazine.
What I'm so very long-windedly trying to demonstrate is that America & Japan have two vastly different cultures, and just because we're used to the "less is more" school of thought on "sexiness", that doesn't mean that everyone thinks that way. "Fully clothed" does not necessarily equal "asexual". If "Elegant Gothic Lolita" wasn't meant to have any sexual connotations, it would probably be named something like "Elegant Gothic Doll".
If any of you still think that egl is all about sweetness & innocence, let's not forget "enjo kosai". How do you think a Japanese schoolgirl can afford all of those clothes when just a pair of Metamorphose hair elastics run about $40? ;P
The bottom line: nothing is new, you are not a unique & beautiful snowflake, your idea of "true egl" doesn't necessarily apply to anyone else, & most of all, don't worry about what other people are doing. It's really more trouble than it's worth, trust me.
Fashion, by its very nature, is a changeable thing. Even "real" egl in Japan isn't a static creature. All you have to do is to objectively compare GLB's #1 & #9 to see what I mean. More importantly, the Japanese fashion trend is based on Western memes. Think about it: if egl were uniquely Eastern in nature, why describe it with exclusively Western words? Yes, the Japanese designers have put their own spin on the clothes they're making, but it's still their interpretation of Western gothic, punk, kinderwhore, etc. styles. So, if Japan can borrow from us, why can't we borrow from them? Why is it "cool" when the Japanese warp an existing style to their own liking, but reprehensible when Americans borrow that interpretation & alter it again? You may
not personally like the new interpretation, & that's fine... but I'm failing to see why its very existence should be so offensive.
As for those of you who don't think that Japanese loli's are sexual, you're kidding yourselves. Remember, they're in an entirely different culture. I'm the first to admit that I'm far from an expert on anything Japanese, but a minimal amount of research will tell you that Japanese men traditionally dislike strong women. The whole "kawaii" culture (and by that I mean grown women dressing/acting like children) grew out of a need to objectify women, to make them submissive, unthreatening, & (at least pretending to be) out of touch with their own sexuality. Egl can be seen as being just a rather extravagant extension of the schoolgirl uniform that's been fetishized pretty much forever. No, I'm not saying that all (or even most) Japanese loli's dress the way they do in order to purposefully be attractive to older men, just that the culture in which they've been raised makes women/girls dressing up as much younger women/girls to be a highly desirable thing.
Now, compare that to America, with our bazillion talk shows about 12 yr olds wearing tons of makeup & dressing like the proverbial "hoochie mama". Clearly, we've got an entirely different set of cultural issues. ;P
As for the whole "showing skin" issue... let's compare porn. ;D Take an issue of Dr. Picasso & compare it to Playboy (arguably the most popular & almost w/o doubt the tamest of American smut mags). In Playboy, you've got very mature-looking ("mature" as in "over the age of consent", not "old") women, in very revealing clothing or stark naked, striking rather provocative poses (at least through our eyes).
Now, look at Dr. Picasso: yes, there is some full nudity, but it tends to be along the lines of "Oops! I'm naked! Hee hee!", rather than the American "Come give it to me hard, stud". Most of the models in Dr. Picasso are actually shot in rather conservative, full-backed bikini (whereas if you see a bathing suit in Playboy, it's almost invariably of the "pasties & dental floss" variety). Dr. Picasso also gives you a *lot* of panty shots, & an awful lot of girls (and they do look like girls, not women), in fetal positions. And let's not even get started on the monthly "snap" feature of Dr. P, which includes shots of random schoolgirls (IIRC, usually between the ages of 15 & 17) w/ some basic stats (name, age, bloodtype) listed. True, they're all completely clothed in their schoolgirl uniforms, but the fact of the matter is that their pictures are published in a very popular *porn* magazine.
What I'm so very long-windedly trying to demonstrate is that America & Japan have two vastly different cultures, and just because we're used to the "less is more" school of thought on "sexiness", that doesn't mean that everyone thinks that way. "Fully clothed" does not necessarily equal "asexual". If "Elegant Gothic Lolita" wasn't meant to have any sexual connotations, it would probably be named something like "Elegant Gothic Doll".
If any of you still think that egl is all about sweetness & innocence, let's not forget "enjo kosai". How do you think a Japanese schoolgirl can afford all of those clothes when just a pair of Metamorphose hair elastics run about $40? ;P
The bottom line: nothing is new, you are not a unique & beautiful snowflake, your idea of "true egl" doesn't necessarily apply to anyone else, & most of all, don't worry about what other people are doing. It's really more trouble than it's worth, trust me.
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no subject
Date: 2003-07-18 01:48 am (UTC)You're right about Japanese men finding innocence a very sexually attractive trait. This is a small fraction of what drew me to EGL... I've always adored "sexy cute", and I pull it off smashingly... EGL fashion simply lets me pronounce the effect to degrees which were previously impossible. =D (That and I've always been obsessed with the look anyway; everything from bonnets and wrist cuffs to mary-janes and frilly stockings...all of which are EXTREME fetish items, ne? And not just in America!)
I'm glad you're so lucid about the "situation". Very impressive. Thanks for writing what you did. :3
no subject
Date: 2003-07-18 01:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-07-18 02:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-07-18 03:42 am (UTC)to each his own
end of story.
no subject
Date: 2003-07-18 05:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-07-18 06:00 am (UTC)In response to the topic on hand, I have to say, it's good to see that so many of us on this comm are talking things out and not being beligerent. In that way, we are emboding the essence of the Japanese EGL.
no subject
Date: 2003-07-18 08:24 am (UTC)bravo.
no subject
Date: 2003-07-18 10:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-07-18 11:22 am (UTC)This is soooo bloody true, esp. if your following a fashion trend.
omg, Thank you for posting this.
no subject
Date: 2003-07-18 12:16 pm (UTC)I've loved EGL since I first set eyes on it, I also love many other styles of clothing which I feel have 'contributed' to the look. I've joined a few EGL communities/groups, but over the last few months have found myself feeling increasingly bored with them, not because I've gone off the clothes, but because so many of the posts seem to be just moaning about whether a particular item of clothing is EGL or not. (I'm not especially saying this community, it's just something I've noticed generally).
no subject
Date: 2003-07-19 12:28 pm (UTC)