Authentic detailing?

[uglylittlewhore.livejournal.com]

Well, I posted this question to Metamorphique, but it never went through. Sniffle. :|

Anyway, though, I was wondering something. Most people complain about the lack of authenticity found in Western-made Lolita clothing. I won't argue with that opinion; I've seen some really dreadful stuff out there. In the midst of pointing out what they don't want, though, most people neglect to say what they do want to see. So I'm curious. What details are you looking for in your EGL clothes that the Western-made styles are lacking? (I think "no satin" and "no synthetic lace" pretty much go without saying.) Are there any particular pieces or accessories that you keep hoping to find, or is it mostly little tailoring touches and construction details that are missing? Finally, what boutiques get it right--or at least come close?



Some things I've been hoping to find:

--Interchangeable accessories, like detachable sleeves and collars, or little corset-belts that go with the skirts. Also, cute neckties, like the ones from MAM or Putumayo.

--Pintucks and pleats in skirts and blouses. Box-pleated skirts look so much nicer than gathered skirts, and rows of pintucks on skirt hems and blouse fronts add a wonderful elegant touch. I've never seen a Western boutique use them. :(

--More coordination. It's so wonderful to see lace patterns that match fabric patterns (like Angelic Pretty's music-note and ice cream dresses), or little accessories made with the same materials and lace as the dresses.

Finally, my favorite designs come from Exquisite Lass and Blasphemina's Closet. Exquisite Lass has the adorable prints and frilly blouses I love to see, and Blasphemina has wonderful elegant skirts. :)

Comments

[ex-pantheria458.livejournal.com]

Just wondering why your post didn't make it? Its true, people are always quick to say what they don't like but never what they like, like you I think pleats in skirts would be nice, I find they look nicer & cute tights would be nice & more knee high socks, trying to get knee high socks is like trying to find a needle in a hay stack!

Re:

[clarice.livejournal.com]

trying to get knee high socks is like trying to find a needle in a hay stack!

You need to come to Seattle, or somewhere else where it's cold ^^ (My mom lives in California, and I take kneesocks home to her because they just don't sell them there.)

At any rate, you're right, nobody really says what they *do* want to see. What I'd like to see, personally, is pretty much everything you've already mentioned, plus a greater variety. Everything made in the US now is pretty much of a the gothic or sweet lolita Metamophose style (and, up until recently, nothing was properly trimmed -- either trimmed enough or trimmed with the right stuff). Nothing is *truely* made in BTTSB style, presumably because it's very time consuming and *very* expensive if you're buying lace off the rack, and I've never seen anything done in the classier, Juliette et Justine style, either. In general, 99% of the Western stuff is just crap... Exquisite Lass is pretty nice, though (never bought from them, but their photos look good)

I've actually thought of expanding my cosplay business and offering a small line of almost-direct reproductions of a couple BTSSB and Angelic Pretty items, along with one or two designed by myself in that style (I'm getting myself a pin-tucking foot and everything ^^), but I eventually decided against it. My assumption was that they wouldn't be marketable at the prices I'd have to ask (I can't compete with Exquisite Lass pricing if I want to make more than $3 /hour), especially taking into account that much lace and trim. (Perhaps this is why we don't see more nicer EGL clothes offered? There just isn't enough of a demand for skirts over $50?) ...It was a dream, though, at any rate ^^;

Re:

[uglylittlewhore.livejournal.com]

I don't know why it didn't make it. ;_; I guess the mods have been really busy lately.

For knee-high socks, there's always http://www.fetishizeme.com . They have every sort of sock imaginable. ^^

Re:

[bialopiotrowicz.livejournal.com]

http://www.fetishize-me.com (http://www.fetishize-me.com/) doesn't have the socks you'd like?

- N

Re:

[raino.livejournal.com]

At least here in Scandinavia knee high socks are very much in fashion right now, all chain clothes shops offer them in different colors and even stripey ones (though I'm still looking for pink and white stripes). Try mainland Europe!

Re:

[tiggielil.livejournal.com]

H&M has been doing the knee high socks thing for a while now...

[storknightmares.livejournal.com]

i like all those ideas too. i am currenetly working on clothing that has many of the qualities. i want to have a big selelction of things before i launch the website though. i have little time so things might have to be either ooak or be able to fit a multitude of sizes since custom sizing isnt an option for me.
sometimes its hard to find laces to match patterns on fabrics. i got VERY lucky and found the most adorable strawberry cotton trim, that will look perfect with this fabric i just bought. i also found black cross shaped venise lace. but only a meter of it. so i am going to use it on some headdresses.

[sakurafairy.livejournal.com]

I dunno about the synthetic lace problem, I think people just treat synthetic lace wrong when they work with it. it is usually much less dense then non-synthetic laces, which makes it look cheap on dark fabrics. If you double up the lace it looks much fuller and not cheap. Atleast thats my experiance.

I do wish for more coordination. From what I've seen though, it's very hard to find good lace patterns like the brands have. I would go crazy to be able to find crown pattern lace and buttons, so far no luck. =(

Re:

[seeinglife.livejournal.com]

Ah, that's what I've been trying to figure out how to say for ages! The way it's so much more see through than eyelet lace for example makes it seem cheap.

I'm lucky for coordination. I found antique silver [looking] heart buttons and lace with hearts in it for the blouse I'm working on. Well, I guess that's not as coordinated as it could be, but I'm particuarly happy about that detail.

[chuppie.livejournal.com]

I've seen way, way too many things like look like "Granny's Country Hee Haw" or "Big Baby Clothes". A lot of times its sythetic lace, I agree, I like eyelet lace like in the sewing mooks, it's softer and doesn't poke or stratch you when you wear it. I've seen people use weird fabrics too, like cheap prints you find out at wal-mart.
And the designs too. I like frilly stuff don't get me wrong, but I also like a wide variety of designs like Putumayo, Metamorphose, MAM, and BSSB. A lot of times people try to make stuff look too outrageous like a cosplay outfit or something. I think keeping things simple in a design is good.

Re:

[uglylittlewhore.livejournal.com]

Yes, variety! Every time a new boutique pops up, I rush to go see it... and end up thinking, "Oh, great. The exact same designs as all the others." Why don't people look at the Bibles more closely? There's a huge variety of Goth, punk, and Lolita styles just begging to be mined. :\

mmm....

[spadix.livejournal.com]

coordination is a good thing. There needs to be a(inexpensive) lace & button shop, that has chains all over North America, because us Canadians always get left our T_____T
Also I wish people would wear cloathing suited for them. Not really in the EGL community that I've seen, but a 300LB sailor moon is just not pretty. I'm sorry, but it's not. Dress to suit your body type.

Re: mmm....

[chuppie.livejournal.com]

a 300lb Sailor Moon! LMFAO

Re: mmm....

[seeinglife.livejournal.com]

I like chubby girls ;) but I'll agree that people need to figure out how to flatter their body type. Bigger girls look great in babydoll/empire waisted dresses, while button down blouses are best left to girls with a small bust. Luckily everyone looks cute in a poofy skirt.

Re: mmm....

[uglylittlewhore.livejournal.com]

What's even scarier is a 300 lb, male Sailor Moon. I've seen it. It's terrifying. x_x

Re: mmm....

[spadix.livejournal.com]

XD when I saw 3 replies in my inbox I was sure I was going to get flammed for the chubby comment~! yatta! But I didn't~!!!!!!! XD

[seeinglife.livejournal.com]

Ok, the first draft of this reply came out all wrong. It sounded far too negative. So, rewriting.

I wish for more detail, period, from Western lolita. I want to see more of the double & triple layers of ruffle on skirts that I adore, and more blouses with nice lace at the collar, the sleeves, the hem, and down the front near the buttons.

More ruffling, period. I think using a ruffle of the same fabric as the rest of the garment can look amazingly elegant. I understand how much easier it is to use pre-ruffled lace, but I also think every sewing loli should own a ruffler attachment.

I want to see more of the gorgeous plush looking velvet that I adore, and less of the cheap overly shiny crushed panne velvet I hate. <3 Moitie for this. And more nice fabrics period. Boo on overly synthetic looking fabric (ewww polyester).

I see too many plain necks in Western loli. Decorate them already! Make them square or give them a pretty high collar! More sweetheart style lines with eyelet lace to add innocently flirty modesty.

More mini top hats!

More use of [silk] roses on headpieces. *hugs meta exchange secret santa for making her one of each of the above*

More adorable shoes!!

More ruffly kneesocks! Come on, all it took me was a $1 pair of Walmart trouser socks, some eyelet lace, and a needle and thread and I had some.

Reply to your list of wants

[avant-gauche.livejournal.com]

Althought I totally agree with everything you say I can understand why none of this happends.It comes down to three basic things: Cost, Availablity of materials and Patterns.

Would you be honestly willing to pay Japanese prices or more for Western lolita clothes? I've been doing research into starting up my own lolita brand for ages.

I worked out that for basic materials it costs me about £30 GBP($50 USD) to make a skirt the kind you'd like using nice lace and cotton fabric, thats even before I add my time and other costs.

Synthetic lace cost a lot less than cotton eyelet/cotton lace which usually cost around £2/£3 GBP pm a meter for the good stuff. where as synthetic lace cost about £0.50 GBP pm. lolita skirt or at least the ones i make for myself use around 5-10 metres of lace.

The same goes for fabric cotton and fake satin cost around a quarter of the price of velveteen(ultra short pile velvet that most lolita skirts are made of)Its also really hard to find velveteen I live in London and even I find it impossible to find velveteen I've been into most of the fabric shops in central london and when i ask for velveteen they look at me non plus.

Availablity:
I've researched into buying and Mini top hats and I've found that they're impossible to find. I guess I could go to a hat manifacturer but that would take massive capital which i just plain dont have.

Patterns:
Pattern cutting is hard. Unless your really good at it, It can go disaterously wrong. Hence most sellers use circle skirts that are easy to size up and down. I've tried making traditional lolita skirts for my self from sratch and they either come out full or just look plain bad its hard to make a pattern when you've only got a photo as reference. I've made about five attempts at making patterns lolita skirts.

In short if you want those things i suggest you sit at your sewing machine and make them.

[cygnebleu.livejournal.com]

More detail and better construction, definitely, but what I think I look for most and most often fail to find is originality of design. There's a lot more to EGL than puffed sleeves, peter pan collars, and black and white, which is most of what seems to be available out there.

I'd also like to see boutiques use nicer fabric rather than the ubiquitous cotton broadcloth, and what mostly keeps me from ordering is that few of them list the fibre content of the fabric they use. Just a pet peeve.

Re:

[totodedum.livejournal.com]

ditto originality. maybe more prints (other than halloween stuff or christmas, ya know?) for the victorian-esque feel. or using pvc & leather without having it look fetishy. like someone else said, i think most western loli shops focus on just one aspect of the fashion and not much else... *i* know i'd like to see more "hardcore" stuff besides just pretty lace and ribbons.

[ashna.livejournal.com]

I want less of the custom fit honestly.
Made a Good garment with details and a general fit like you find at stores.
Make the sizes bigger than in japan obviously.
If it's too big? Get it fitted.
It's it's too small? Go find a custom working in your city so you KNOW it'll fit. Especially if you're going to spend the money on it!
Make a large, small and medium. Maybe offer certain styles in extra larges or others in smaller sizes.
I think this will keep the quality of the garments more true. The cut and style will remain as well.

A nice shape to the clothing would be nice. Poofy skirts and boxy shirts prevail.
Also more gothic and punkish clothing would really be nice.

Actually, would somebody just make my designs? I like them. I just can't sew!
*flails* *kicks sewing machine*
But yeah and agreeing with all other comments.

Re:

[uglylittlewhore.livejournal.com]

I'm inclined to agree... While custom fitting is nice, it's not usually necessary. And when you have to custom-make every piece, it limits how many designs you can reasonably have. :\

[aitreni.livejournal.com]

-- No cleavage. NO cleavage! No exposed shoulders, either. Western styles expose FAR too much of the upper body.
-- Jacket/skirt coordinates. There are dresses, and skirts, and blouses... but I have yet to see *jackets*. Why not? Jackets, especially with detachable capes, are adorable!

What I'd really *really* like to see is stuff in a true androgynous aristocratic style, like many of Moitie and Atelier Boz's designs. NOT feminine skirts and corsets, *masculine* styles cut for the female body. Cravat blouses, elegant jackets and pants, dramatic long coats, perhaps some vests and cummerbunds... It's extremely disappointing to go looking for elegant aristocrat clothing and find nothing for women but sexy female styles (ugh~) and of course the men's clothing is all much too large for me.

If some Western goth/loli maker started doing androgynous aristocrat clothes I might actually break my "never ever buy online" rule and order from them. Assuming, of course, that it was either custom sizing or included VERY small sizes... I won't support companies that don't make clothes small enough for me. It's not reasonable to buy garments that need to be ripped apart and completely resewn.

Re:

[seeinglife.livejournal.com]

How coincidental that I just bought a pattern for capelets and slightly bolero-ish short jackets for the purpose of EGL-izing and Ebaying them. ;)

And you're right about the aristocrat clothing... although I doubt I can personally pull of androgyny, being very petite and little girl looking. Better suited to loli I guess... I'd have mentioned it but I was thinking purely in lolita mode. Why is the only place I've found that sells the fitted kind of long coat I want Gallery Serpentine? Meh. Shipping from there to here would be so ickily expensive.

I feel you on needing small custom sizes. 31-24-33 on a large day and five feet tall. >_

[blasphemina.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you like my skirts :) I'm obsessed with box pleats and heavy fabric. I'm actually going to be revamping the site over the next few months and will only be taking custom orders until May. Well, that and the t-shirts. :)

But yes, it is hard, I think, when we only have access to sucky laces and fabrics. You just kinda have to search them out, I guess. Sometimes I have to bite the bullet and use sucky lace, but that's coz that's what people want to pay for. When doing custom things, if someone wants to pay a little, you still have to make money off of it so it's not worth doing if you don't make a decent profit. This is when the quality of the materials suffer. People don't want to pay $50 for a headpiece. They want to pay $18-22. I feel frustrated using lower quality materials when I have to, but what are you gonna do, right?

Re:

[uglylittlewhore.livejournal.com]

I love your skirts! As soon as I can afford it, I'll buy one. ^^ I'm absolutely in lust with that lovely box-pleated one with the wide waistband.

I know very well how hard it is to find good fabric and lace. I've taken to using ruffles instead of lace, in a lot of ways. It makes for a simpler, more elegant look. I have to scrounge the bargain tables for good fabric, though... Every now and then, I find a fabulous deal and stock up. I've been using a lot of cotton calico--thicker and softer than broadcloth, and comes in a good range of prints and solid colours. And every month, they have it half off at Hobby Lobby. :D

[czol.livejournal.com]

I honestly can't point to something & say "I definitely hate that 100% of the time, & I definitely like that 100% of the time". Things that look tacky on one garment, look great on something else & vice versa. Fabrics that look hideous can look fabulous with the right sewing techniques & embellishments, just as cool fabrics can look terrible when done badly.

I actually quite like most western lolli stuff. I agree it doesn't generally work too well for full on egl, but it's great for what I refer to as 'lolli on a day off', where you don't want to (or can't) go the full whack, but want to add a few frills & generally advertise to anyone in the know that you're into egl.

[marle777.livejournal.com]

I honestly can't add a whole lot to the discussion because everything that's been said pretty much coincides with how I feel about the western seller situation. I have however found the many previous comments very interesting and insightful as I do eventually plan to attempt an online gothic & lolita clothier shop. I do believe (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) that those of us not living in Japan would pay slightly higher prices for quality that rivals what we see in the Japanese brands. It's a real hassle to get these things from Japan and just removing the "hassle factor" might be worth it for many of us, ne? I had recently only thought of selling EGL and sweet lolita designs, but upon reading about the apparent lack of aristocrat and neo-gothic sub-types I am now considering that as well.

I'd also like to add that while it is true that availability and cost is a major factor in why we see so many "less than desirable" items out there, I have found that Cheep Trims (http://cheeptrims.com) has the best prices on quality lace (cluny, venise, eyelet) hands down across the internet. And for those of you running small shops, buying an entire spool of good lace for $15-$40 is definitely a good deal. I've already started to stock up myself. As for fabrics, I haven't gotten that pinned down yet, but I have heard that checking out your local fabric mills will fetch you good deals for small bulk purchases. I've yet to try this out as I'm not that far along in my plans.

P.S. I do know that your post hasn't gone through on Meta yet because the mods have been really busy with personal things and haven't had access to the internet as much as they have in the past. If any post is rejected for some reason, I'm pretty sure they send an e-mail notification stating why and so forth.

thoughts and recommendations

[kireipanda.livejournal.com]

I'd like to point out that it's not like japanese girls have tons of money floating around to blow on egl clothing in comparison to american and european girls. The clothes we all adore are designer items and like all designer clothing they come with a pretty big price tag. No one has a gothic lolita outfit dripping in lace and other expensive trims for every day of the week. I'm sure most japanese girls who own gothic lolita clothes from btssb or metamorphose or angelic pretty have taken their time to pick the perfect outift that they've saved up for. And what do they get for their money? They feel absolutely beautiful, and proud of the outfit they strut around harajuku in. I think thats worth paying a bit more for, but hey, I'm obsessed with aesthetics.

Why doesn't anyone make boy clothes? My boyfriend _wants_ to wear lace cuffs, damnit, and The only way for that to happen seems to be for me to make it myself.

In other news, I wanted to reccomend http://www.supert3ch.com
I happen to be the proud owner of the heart skirt and tie (TIE TIEEEE!1) set and the corset top skirt and they are both beautifully made, and the closest thing to japanese quality ive ever seen in the US. She is also making me the jumper in a pink plaid, as i messaged her to request a pastel plaid fabric liek the ones shown in the angelic pretty and btssb spring collections. Electroncat makes all of her own patterns and is a charming girl, so go look at her site ^_^

Re: thoughts and recommendations

[missmeganmaude.livejournal.com]

Oh hoo-ray!
I'm glad you liked the things you already got!
Thanks for giving me the shout-out and recommending me too!
*hugs*