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Jan. 15th, 2004 10:18 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
agentscuiy.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
egl_archiveHas this been said enough? I've been a member of this community for a very long time, and I just cannot deal with it anymore. I've really gotten sick of everything in this community. No, I'm not sick of people posting auction pictures, I am seriously appaled at the behavior of the members of this community. I'm sorry, I know there are certain 'guidelines' to 'proper' EGL, but YOU PEOPLE ARE HYPOCRITES!! How can you say you know everything and are the True Judge of Japanese EGL fashion when YOU DON'T LIVE IN JAPAN? You don't know how and where these people wear their clothes, you don't know how they act when they wear the clothes... It's just absolutely ridiculous to be elitist over something you don't fully understand. As much as you adore the fashion, you can't fully grasp anything you are not an active participant in! [Any anthropologist will tell you it is impossible to know a culture without experiencing it first-hand; textbooks aren't enough!]
Read your Gothic & Lolita Bibles all you want, mail-order your thousand-dollar Baby the Stars Shine Bright shit, and talk about how cute Metamorphose's new line is... there is nothing wrong with that! But just STOP turning it into a huge "this isn't Lolita enough" battle. I know it's annoying to see neon pink ass-bearing skirts labelled "elegant", but beyond the obvious you really have no right to judge! You are NOT the inventors of the style, for heaven's sake Japan isn't even the inventor of this style, and just because you like the Japanese-version of it and maybe own an authentic brand piece DOES NOT mean you have the right to insult things and people YOU don't think are up to the standards and rules that YOU created.... which to tell you the truth PEOPLE IN JAPAN DON'T CARE ABOUT!! It is only you guys sitting around being downright CRUEL to each other, while the "true" Lolitas in Japan are wearing WHATEVER THE HELL THEY WANT! Lose your grandoise delusions... Lolitas don't sit around sipping tea and discussing rainbows and love with their teddy bears by their side. Lolitas are every type of girl who most of the time don't wear the style at all, and dress that way in hopes that their favorite band member fetishizes Lolitas and will take her home that night when they go to a concert. In fact they can be quite as rude and obnoxious as most of you can be, so maybe you are heading in the right direction!
If you were truly a Japanese Lolita, you would be like everyone else and just ACCEPT it for what it is... CLOTHES!
Read your Gothic & Lolita Bibles all you want, mail-order your thousand-dollar Baby the Stars Shine Bright shit, and talk about how cute Metamorphose's new line is... there is nothing wrong with that! But just STOP turning it into a huge "this isn't Lolita enough" battle. I know it's annoying to see neon pink ass-bearing skirts labelled "elegant", but beyond the obvious you really have no right to judge! You are NOT the inventors of the style, for heaven's sake Japan isn't even the inventor of this style, and just because you like the Japanese-version of it and maybe own an authentic brand piece DOES NOT mean you have the right to insult things and people YOU don't think are up to the standards and rules that YOU created.... which to tell you the truth PEOPLE IN JAPAN DON'T CARE ABOUT!! It is only you guys sitting around being downright CRUEL to each other, while the "true" Lolitas in Japan are wearing WHATEVER THE HELL THEY WANT! Lose your grandoise delusions... Lolitas don't sit around sipping tea and discussing rainbows and love with their teddy bears by their side. Lolitas are every type of girl who most of the time don't wear the style at all, and dress that way in hopes that their favorite band member fetishizes Lolitas and will take her home that night when they go to a concert. In fact they can be quite as rude and obnoxious as most of you can be, so maybe you are heading in the right direction!
If you were truly a Japanese Lolita, you would be like everyone else and just ACCEPT it for what it is... CLOTHES!
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Date: 2004-01-15 08:25 pm (UTC)*claps*
<3
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Date: 2004-01-15 08:27 pm (UTC)That said, I agree with you for the most part.
The Gothic & Lolita Bibles, along with all the mooks, and various Japanese EGL webpages are what I am influenced by when it comes to defining Elegant Gothic Lolita. Fashion is a hobby of mine... But out of all the different fashions and designers that I like to read and look at, I love EGL the most.
To many fashion is an art, and some of the most beautiful, detailed clothing comes out of Japan. The aesthetics of some Japanese fashion is simply unlike many of the things we have in the West.
Where I agree with you is that many Western Lolitas are, in fact hypocritical. It stems from both this community and Metamorphiqe (Which I am a member of, and no-one will argue that it they are elitist ^^;). If you look at any designers, or simply a Gothic & Lolita Bible, you would see just how diverse the Gothic & Lolita culture really is! EGL is not just Baby the Stars Shine Bright, and it never was! Besides that, there is a sexual part of EGL, as seen in the G&L Bibles (from underwear, to fetishism and eroticism.
So before people judge, pull out a Bible or look through different websites. There is no one 'true style' for any fashion, and EGL is no different. In all honesty, I'd like to imagine our Japanese sisters would be much more understanding and tolerant of each other, too. ^_^
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Date: 2004-01-15 09:04 pm (UTC)And I am a member of metamorphique myself, but I like the way everyone seems to design their own clothes there, and it's more focused on that than to play "Lolier than thou". I think the problem here is that there are just too many people in one place. Too many conflicting views and no self control.
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Date: 2004-01-16 10:52 am (UTC)Fashion is definitely an art for some of us, me included, and a lot of the things that I dress up in aren't Lolita by some standards--and nothing I own yet is from Japan simply because of my limited funds--but my costumes are formed more from my interpretations of what the Lolita embodies than "by the book" purchasing of approved name brands.
When I'm not dressing Loli, a lot of the time I like Kinderwhore, because a part of both styles is the innocence/sexiness contrast of the child-woman. Since in a lot of ways I consider myself a child-woman, I feel really free when I get to dress up like one.
I used the looks in the Bibles as a starting point, and then personalized from there. I also like elements of 'snap', and take cues from magazines like Kera.
I don't think that an aficionado would say that I am Lolita enough, but when I am in costume, I feel I am in my heart and that feeling just sort of ... transforms me for the time being.
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Date: 2004-01-15 08:30 pm (UTC)Fashion is fashion. The only time I get bitchy is the local lolita tea parties. Since they Are baised on the japanese fashion and the bibles. Much fun to be had.
But anyways. Honestly? Just let it go. people will be stridant and opinionated and down right bitchy. Just shrug and let them. Cuz angy loud people can't be convinced of nything. Especially not on-line!
You know it's just clothing. So why get upet that other people can't see that?
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Date: 2004-01-15 08:37 pm (UTC)"Aww, is our little girl growing up?"
It's definately nice to see you've given thought to some of the things we said (not saying you got it from us, I'm sure tons of other people have been spouting the same stuff we do... but I'm selfish and like to take credit for things.) Either way, I like your point, it is very well put forth.
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Date: 2004-01-15 08:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-15 08:51 pm (UTC)That's the problem with the internet. We're all faceless to one another. What you say here, will probably have little affect on those you speak against. I'm not trying to put down everything you've expressed, that is not my intention. What I am trying to say is that I find it a shame that your well thought out and reasonable view will go un-noticed. It's awful that it's come to the point where I can say the most negative and/or rude thing I could ever think of, and mask it with a simple smiley face. They're just words from the moment our fingers touch the keyboard. And words can be over looked, easily scrolled over.
However, I hope that maybe this will open the eyes of at least a few of these elitist people and perhaps they will think about your side, and your opinion before harshly tearing apart another member over something so trivial.
In everyday life we realize that not everyone else has the same tastes and opinions we do. Even if your best friend of fifteen years that loves the same bands, style, tv shows, etc as you do, there will always be something slightly different to them then yourself. So why can't we realize that here? Just because we all love EGL/EGA, we're not all going to be carbon copies of one another. What fun would it be if we were?
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Date: 2004-01-15 08:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-15 08:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-15 09:01 pm (UTC)How can you say you know everything and are the True Judge of Japanese EGL fashion
I have yet to read any posts where people claim complete knowledge of this fashion.
for heaven's sake Japan isn't even the inventor of this style
I know and uderstand that egl is inspired by western clothing but I always thought the actual style was purley Japanese. Am I wrong? Who did it before them then?
Lolitas don't sit around sipping tea and discussing rainbows and love with their teddy bears by their side. Lolitas are every type of girl who most of the time don't wear the style at all
thats a generalization. I mean, I totally understand that this is how it is in most cases, but this is just as bad as saying 'that item of clothing isnt egl' or whatever. You yourself just defined what egl is and isnt. And even if it isnt like sipping tea and discussing rainbows, does that mean we shouldnt want it to be? by saying 'the girls in japan dont so we shouldnt' is just as bad as saying 'the girls in japan do so we should.' if anyone wants to discuss rainbows and love teddy bears with me, I'd be glad to have them as a friend, and still consider it egl, even if they dont do it in Japan
If you were truly a Japanese Lolita, you would be like everyone else and just ACCEPT it for what it is... CLOTHES!
clothes can be more than clothes to anyone, even if it wasnt the original intent of the designer or anyone else who buys them. You cant define a true Japanese Lolita because everyone is different and has their own take on it.
YOU PEOPLE ARE HYPOCRITES
i disagree
im not really sorry if this post offends anyone although i am sorry if it doesnt make much sense. i have a lot of caffeine in me at the moment and am doubting my language skills, so this all really does make sense in my head and i hope it makes sense typed out as well
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Date: 2004-01-15 09:16 pm (UTC)...look around. While no one says "I KNOW EVERYTHING", they are very VERY quick to insult anything and dub it "not lolita enough". People have posted pages of rules defining the fashion to their terms.
I know and uderstand that egl is inspired by western clothing but I always thought the actual style was purley Japanese. Am I wrong? Who did it before them then?
Goths all around the world, and all through history. I do not know much about fashion history so I will leave a more detailed explanation to someone like Calistra.
thats a generalization... You yourself just defined what egl is and isnt.
Of COURSE it was a generalization! I said that EGL is worn by EVERY type of girl! In other words, I'm saying it HAS no definition! They're not all goths, they're not all visual kei fans.. everyone that wears Lolita is different! I am not labelling EGL but simply saying the people that wear the style are totally diverse in their interests so that it cannot be defined!
And even if it isnt like sipping tea and discussing rainbows, does that mean we shouldnt want it to be? by saying 'the girls in japan dont so we shouldnt' is just as bad as saying 'the girls in japan do so we should.' if anyone wants to discuss rainbows and love teddy bears with me, I'd be glad to have them as a friend, and still consider it egl, even if they dont do it in Japan
But the fact is, whether or not it's nice and happy... people think it is that way, and don't want it any other way. "The Japanese girls do it, so anything else is wrong"... But you can't say that when you don't know how things really are! That is my point.
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Date: 2004-01-16 12:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-15 09:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-15 09:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-15 09:41 pm (UTC)it'll be the best christmas ever!
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Date: 2004-01-15 09:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-16 02:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-15 09:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-15 09:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-15 09:56 pm (UTC)We're a bunch of mongoose. Ready to lash out at the first sign of danger, which could just be a little kid offering food. ^_^
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Date: 2004-01-15 10:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-15 10:06 pm (UTC)Mongeese...heeheeheeheeheehee. Brilliant. ^_^ Let's start using it!
...I forget. Are we arguing in the other thread or is that someone else?
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Date: 2004-01-15 10:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-15 10:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-15 10:11 pm (UTC)(Sorry. Your pirate picture kind of set me off into weird mode. ^_^() )
::hands you a slice of baby-shaped cake::
Date: 2004-01-15 10:14 pm (UTC)Re: ::accepts slice of baby-shaped cake::
Date: 2004-01-15 10:17 pm (UTC)Re: ::accepts slice of baby-shaped cake::
Date: 2004-01-15 10:20 pm (UTC)Most slash is good slash. On with it! XD
Re: ::accepts slice of baby-shaped cake::
Date: 2004-01-15 10:24 pm (UTC)Do you slash Lupin/Sirius? Or Sirius with anybody from that gen? If you do, this could be the start of a beautiful friendship. ^_^ (If both sides are willing. FTR, I love Harry Potter. Was a bit hostile given I'm also a Rings fan, but I read the first one when I was baby-sitting 'cause I forgot a book since I ran late and fell in love from there. Fifth one kind of cut really, really deep so I haven't read again.)
::HUG:: Night!
Re: ::accepts slice of baby-shaped cake::
Date: 2004-01-15 10:28 pm (UTC)night night! thanks for the fun debate!
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Date: 2004-01-15 10:47 pm (UTC)Anyway...You just said what I have wanted to say to so many members of this Western Loli thing for so long. I'm not a full-time loli. I've got other interests. If I want to dress EGL, I will. If I want to wear a corset and vinyl pants, I will. I like the EGL style. I like looking at the beautiful clothing; I no longer like to read what people have to say about it. I wonder if I even need a community or mailing list for anything. If you like EGL, then buy the magazines, look at pictures, make some clothes, whatever. If you reeeally like it, well, go ahead and visit Japan.
I hope you're feeling better now that you've gotten to release that. I totally know how it feels.
I have to admit, I'm sure I've contributed to mailing list battles. I feel terrible and stupid for that.
Oh, and I just did a presentation on EGL with a friend for Japan Club. Well, not just EGL. Popular fashion in Japan. We didn't even mention grace and all that...We talked about the clothes!
- Narcissus
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Date: 2004-01-16 01:04 am (UTC)The ML is a bit dead at the moment, apart from a few Loli gathering emails and some newbie posts...
[not that i participate very often myself... you probably have no idea who i am! gomen ne if i sound stalkerish >_>]
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Date: 2004-01-16 09:47 am (UTC)A while ago, I chose to start recieving email again, after checking out the messages at the website. There are still people who know what they're talking about, ie. where you can get different mooks and how to get things from the G&L Bibles. Though you're right, it is rather quiet at the moment.
- N
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Date: 2004-01-16 02:25 am (UTC)THANK YOU!! I would have said it better myself! You are right and I totally agree with you 100%!
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Date: 2004-01-16 07:16 am (UTC)Unless you're refering to people asking "Please comment on my outfit!" and then people comment to it. In which case, the people commenting are expressing their opinion about the outfit in relation to their ideal of EGL fashion.
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Date: 2004-01-16 09:56 am (UTC)The meaning of the word lolita is:
"A seductive adolescent girl." or different words to the same effect.
sorry. not being nasty or anything!!!!!!!!!! Just thought I'd point that out.
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Date: 2004-01-16 12:29 pm (UTC)Anway, it's a nice post, but I don't think that the problem is with people being "lolier than thou". I think it started out as a simple appeal to have the community cleanup and snowballed into misinterpretations and flames.
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Date: 2004-01-16 09:58 am (UTC)These posts are silly though...