egl_archive

it was fun, but in an unsettling way.
I couldn't relax. I felt like I didn't belong.

I wonder if anyone else felt the way I did?

-Pinkrobot

From:

marle777.livejournal.com

I'm supposed to be going to Japan in the fall for a festival (I think my friend bought me a yukata or kimono to wear at the festival) and sightseeing/shopping. I'm very worried about feeling like I don't belong. What made you feel that way while you were there? I'm interested to know if there's anything I should be prepared for.

From:

I want to visit Japan, mainly for shopping/sightseeing. Why did you feel uncomfortable? I can understand why any american/western would feel out of place, because most westerners are lot taller/bigger. I've always heard very nice things about Japanese people being very helpful and friendly to westerners.

From:

I've been in Tokyo for a while. Since I'm half Japanese I haven't experienced the "not-belonging" thing the way other foreigners have -- I don't stick out here like they do. But like Diluendo I'm a minority even in the US. A lot of the things that make Americans feel like they don't belong in Japan, like too-small chairs, too-low straps on trains, "tiny" meal portions, etc, make me feel *at home* for the first time in my life. Even though America is my home country I can never be physically comfortable there; and I'm just as likely to get asked "where are you from?" in America as Japan. So in a way, I'm glad to hear about other people feeling uncomfortable in Japan, because it makes them more understanding of what it's like to be a minority.

As for clothes... I stopped wanting to wear Lolita quite soon after I came here. It was a revelation to find that here I wasn't too short or chubby-cheeked for the androgynous look. I still love Lolita on other people, but I prefer to be Oscar-style masculine...

From:

marle777.livejournal.com

All of those things you listed about Japan probably wouldn't bother me in the least. I'm only 5'0 so maybe things will be more comfortable in that sense. As for feeling like a minority, I don't need to go to Japan to get that. ^^;

From:

Well, I went to Laforet, or course. I went all over the place.

The reason I started this post was because I felt unwanted there.

I am 5'7" 120lbs. Many of the shop girls were trying to say in broken english "you can't try this on, you will stretch it out."
I was embarrased many times, when it seemed like girls were passive-aggressively telling me I was too big, ugly or American.

What should I do differently next time I go?

(deleted comment)

From:

kawaiisamurai.livejournal.com

yeah....i agree with Diluendo completely.

Honestly, I really doubt they were trying to be insulting. As Diluendo pointed out, they were probably just trying to save you the trouble-- or possibly embarrasment, if you tried on a million clothes and none fit? Since those girls worked there, they obviously know about the merchandise, and know what size it is. So I think it's possible that they knew that the thing you were looking at wouldn't fit you.

I think that if you wear larger than US size 4-6, it's unlikely you'll find too many EGL clothes that fit you here (err...and I say this based on the one dress and one skirt I have from America....so I could be wrong.) But according to those clothes I wear about US size 4, and still there are often times I can't fit in EGL clothes of certain brands, or at least not the way they're supposed to fit.

And now...on a deeper note. Whatever the case, look at it this way: you are in another country, so obviously the customs and the way people act will be different. It seems that many tourists are shocked when they visit somewhere like Tokyo (ie a very modern city) and still find that things are different than their home country. But I mean....why would it be the same, ya know? If you visited a tiny village in the desert in Africa, would you be shocked to find that people acted differently, or had different ideas about what is polite or approrpriate, and so on?

Yes, you will find many of the same modern conveniences in Japan that you can find in any other industrialised nation-- and then some. Yes, you will find similarities between, say, Tokyo and New York City. But that doesn't mean that Japan is like America (or anywhere else) when you get down to a deeper level. Japanese culture has been going on for thousands of years, and even in a huge and modern city, the Japanese way of thinking is still present. I promise you that people are indeed being very polite and kind to you-- but because they're doing it in the way that it's done in *our* society (which may be different from how politeness is expressed in other places), it might be difficult for people who are only visiting for a short time to see this.

Sorry, I don't think I'm explaining myself very well. I'm just saying this as someone who's lived in several different countries, and thus I know first-hand about how cultural misunderstandings can come about (i'm sure I was guilty of many mistakes on this topic in America, England, France, and so on myself!).

But when you go to Tokyo, just relax yourself and have fun! If you have a relaxed attitude about things like this and realise that 99% of the time people are trying to be helpful rather than rude, you'll have a much better time.
so put on your nicest clothes, go to harajuku, and have a nice time ^_^.

(wow this was an overly long comment, sorry)

From:

Seconding Diluendo again. Most of these clothes from small brands only come in one size and it's not going to fit everyone. If an assistant tells you it won't fit, it's not necessarily rudeness. It's probably just a simple statement of fact. I've never heard of them saying such a thing to someone *just because* they were a foreigner.

But considering your height and weight I'd recommend trying some of the brands that make unisex clothes. Most things made for Japanese girls will be too short for you even if they're okay in the width. Men's/unisex clothing might be just right. H. Naoto, Moi-meme-Moitie, Atelier Boz, and Alice Auaa all have slightly larger clothing that runs long for boys. Why don't you give those brands a shot next time you're in Japan?

From:

p.s. I was there a week.

From:

bijuarukei.livejournal.com

I was in Tokyo for a week in August. Unlike the above posters, I often felt like I fit in more there than in the US. And I'm probably the most Caucasian looking girl out there, though I have smaller body type. (I'm 5'4" and about 110 lbs. Most of the clothes fit me, but I found that the shirts where often too short. I bought a pretty little blouse at Putumayo, but it goes right above my belly button. I know the whole low-rise, small shirt fad isn't popular in Japan, so I figure my torso's too long. -_-;;) I just might be an attention whore and dillusional, but couldn't help but be a little flattered when store clerks would rush up to me and greet amicably, "Irasshaimase!" Then again, I never feel like I belong here in the US. I especially felt welcome as I wondered down small streets in Ebisu, Meguro, and Harajuku. I guess not many foreigners explore those areas (I didn't see any) and they thought it was great that a foreigner took interest in their little shops. Personally, my one week in Japan was the best experience of my life and I'd be happy to chat about it further with anyone who's been there or is planning on visiting. ^_^

From:

i thought that for my height i am skinny? Thats what I thought.

I went in many stores and tried MANY things on.
I bought a lot of things from Metamorphose and Emily Temple Cute that fit.

Isn't it just one person's opinion if something doesn't look good on you?
The French woman who wouldn't let the American woman buy those shoes, WTF?
Just because her opinion was "those don't suit you."
Everyone has a different opinion of what looks good.
(That's especially true when looking at some of the posts in here, no?)

You have to admit, if someone is willing to pay for something, and the shop staff won't let someone, they aren't doing it to be polite.
There's got to be an ounce of rudeness, jealousy, or just plain hate involved.

I love Japan a alot, I saved up for years to go there.
It was just disappointing how much people seemed to hate me.
I still wonder what I did wrong, so I can not do it again.

From:

seeinglife.livejournal.com

The French woman who wouldn't let the American woman buy those shoes, WTF?
Just because her opinion was "those don't suit you."
Everyone has a different opinion of what looks good.
(That's especially true when looking at some of the posts in here, no?)

You have to admit, if someone is willing to pay for something, and the shop staff won't let someone, they aren't doing it to be polite.
There's got to be an ounce of rudeness, jealousy, or just plain hate involved.

If an American acted like that, yes, they're either rude or jealous. For someone from a different country and or culture, not necessarily.

(deleted comment)

From:

miyu-sakura.livejournal.com

Hmmm... a bit harsh, I think she was just trying to share that not every experience in a foreign country will always be happy.

As for France.... I have mixed feelings on that country having lived there for 1/2 year. I speak French fluently, to the point where I *almost* sound native, but there are always differences. I liked many places in France, but Paris was hard for me to enjoy because they have something of an eltist attitude at times, particularly towards Americans. I liked Lyons, except now my French has that twangy, "sing-song" of the accent in that area. *sigh*

Japan, in my opinion, is no different. Not everything that happens there will be good. The Japanese do have strong racial prejudices no matter which way you turn it, and unlike Americans, they mask it with politeness. I'm not sure which was worse, visiting the Southern United States and being called a "uppity nigger", or going to Korea and being told in broken English "Please to be polite, your black gives me a bad feeling".

But that's they way the cookie crumbles. There's nothing I can do about my skin color and the upside is that I never get sunburned. ^_^;;

From:

I've heard this too from a lot of african americans who visit Japan. A lot of the time Japanese people act scared of them. Japan is homoginized society only a small precentage is Koren or foreigners.
For example I lived in area that's mainly white, hispanic, and native american. If people see someone who is black or asian here, they stare and wonder where they came from. The same goes for people who have never seen someone who's native american.

(deleted comment)

From:

miyu-sakura.livejournal.com

Meh, *shrug*, s'all good, my sistah.

From:

Diluendo,
I agree with most of your points.

I just thought I would know what is aesthetically "right" since I went to school for fashion design.

I felt insulted because it was one someone telling me I was wrong.
Someone was telling me "you're not that great" in a way.
Do you see how I may have felt?

I was very polite to the store clerk and didn't act like it was a big deal. I just said "Ok" and continued shopping, but inside I felt really confused, and sad.

But to this day, I don't understand how to avoid doing this again.
I fear going back to Japan because of it.
I feel like the shop clerk thought I just didnt know what I was doing.
What should I do next time? What can I do to avoid the embarassment?

thanks,
Pinkrobot

From:

marle777.livejournal.com

Sometimes when I'm clothes shopping (which is rare) I get very helpful salespeople who love to comment on things I'm trying on. They'll tell me if something looks nice for my body type or if something just doesn't suit me. I'm sure they would probably sell me something they thought looked bad on me (this is America after all, it's all about the $$$), but they would definitely try to talk me out of it first. It's rare to find shops where salespeople care enough to get involved with what you're trying on, but it happens. So when you look at it that way, it's not really that rude after all. ^__^ I'm sure it's more common in high end shops as well as foreign countries.

From:

BTW thanks, everyone, for your replies.
I love your long posts and advice.

thank you..

From:

As Americans we're used to walking into a store and finding something that fits, because there's so many different sizes here for clothes. But Japanese brands don't really need different sizes, I mean most Japanese people are the same body type and size. So that's understandable.
But I think I can say for most of us, who are taller and bigger, we'd love to fit into loli/gothic clothing from Japan. But I understand there's just no way being 5'9" that I'll ever fit into it. (Good thing I can always sew my own.) It's depressing, but sadly true.
When I go to Japan I'll shop for shoes and accessories at the egl stores. But I won't have to worry about not fitting into anything at the Sanx store, hee hee.
I'm not concerned about not "fitting in", I don't here in the US, I'm taller than most women so I'm used to being a giant. I go to a lot of Japanese grocery stores and I'm used to being the only giant white girl in the store. I love Japanese culture and Japan. And every person I've encountered from Japan (on the net mainly) has been really nice so I'm not worried about anyone being mean to me because I'm American.
So if I'm at BSSB or Metamorphose and a store clerk tells me I'm too big for the clothes, I'll just polietly tell them I know but I'd love to shop for their beautiful purses and accessories. And to dressup when I go to the shopping areas, I'm not going to wear jeans and tube top or antyhing.
Sorry for such a long post, but I'm really interested in people's experiences in Japan, since I'm planning on going in the next year or so. So if you have any info on how your visit went let me know. ^_^

From:

Yeah that's another thing.

Those of you who have been to Tokyo, what do you think is the correct way to dress in Tokyo?

I tried to wear something so that I didnt stick out (black t-shirt), but I didn't feel like I looked nice.

Tips! Tips!

; )

From:

The way one dresses does make a difference in Tokyo.

Basically, it's just being VERY well-groomed and neat. I hate to say it but a lot of tourists (both Americans and Europeans) look terribly slovenly in Tokyo, and that's probably a bigger factor in any rude treatment they may receive than their foreignness. You don't necessarily have to wear fancy, expensive, or super-trendy clothing; but make sure that what you have is very well-maintained (fresh-looking and wrinkle-free) and fits properly. It can be just a simple t-shirt and jeans, as long as they're not faded or worn and fit perfectly. American and Japanese standards of neatness are NOT the same, and I and many of my friends have come here with clothing that was perfectly fine-looking in the US that suddenly seemed faded and disheveled in Tokyo. And beware of tight clothing -- it's trendy to wear tight stuff in the US now, but if you wear that in Tokyo everyone's going to think your clothes are too small and vulgar to boot.

Additionally, I've found it helps to have a nice handbag. I recently got a Gaultier bag that was in one of the recent Bibles and it's like a billboard telling shop assistants that whatever else I might be wearing that day I *CAN* spend money if I choose. So when I walk into Moitie in a new-looking suit and the Gaultier bag, I get MUCH better treatment than the disheveled kids in the corner who look like they crawled out of the Salvation Army bin.

From:

I went to the Japan's Ministry of Tourism site and they suggest not to wear skimpy clothing too. People in middle america dress really casual, I live in Colorado and people go to work in jog pants. I'll kept that in mind, thank you. Would a Hello Kitty purse, black slacks, and white blouse with a plaid tie be too trashy looking?

From:

That doesn't sound trashy, it sounds cute. ^_^ Just make sure it's nice and crisp-looking -- the white is really clean, the black isn't faded, and there aren't any wrinkles where there oughtn't be. ^^

From:

Ok thanks. Fortunatly I can't leave the house without having my shirts and pants ironed perfectly. I hate having wrinkled clothes I feel like a bum.
Also... When I was in school people thought I was Japanese or Asian. I have Navajo/Cherokee Grandmothers so I have very dark hair and features but very light skin. So I don't look too freaky in EGL stuff.

From:

I agree with Diluendo. A lot of botique type shops like the egl clothing ones in Japan, try to help their customers look their best. Sort of like going to a Gucci shop here in the US. Most Americans shop at malls or discount stores, so we really don't have experience with this sort of thing. Also I guess try to dress the part when going to a particular shop. I see preppies and yuppies walk into Hot Topic and the clerks act cool and indifferent to them than to someone who wears clothes from there. It's also a plus to learn to speak some Japanese when visiting, I think it's just plain out of courtesy for people. Most Japanese can read english but can't speak it very well. But I've talked to people who went to Japan and don't speak any Japanese and got around fine. I guess Americans don't have much experience with being "worldly" and being open to other countires customs. If some of you who live in Japan could offer your advice, I'd really apprciate it. I don't want to go there and be a "silly gaijin". I've never been out of the country and have only travled in the Southwest US.

From:

shukuchi47.livejournal.com

Hi chuppie! Im Anton! Ive lived there for 7 years and yes it is differnt, more of in a subtle yet somewhat chaotic way. In downtown Tokyo, sure you may want to be dressed fashionable or nice, but with so many people does it really manner? I really dont think so but it is prefered.

It might also be courteous and useful to know some Japanese. Like if your in a restraunt or store you want to say thanks and please or i want this. Acting like a total foreigner by me is totally fine. Just dont do anything stupid like they do on the Jack Ass movie. But even in that movie the Japanese guards dont do anything so dont worry. They say America is a free country, well, Japan is pretty dang free too for foreigners and you can practically do anything you want. Just go to a convinience store and get beer, sake, or cigarettes( if desired) and they dont card you like here. If you find some friendly guys they might even buy you a drink at a bar in down town Shibuya or Shinjuku.

Anton

From:

Aitreni,
Do you have an AOL Instant Messenger or MSN Messenger account?
It would be nice to be able to chat with you.
Maybe you can help me be less of a halfwit when I go to Tokyo next time.

I would appreciate it.

-Pinkrobot

From:

I don't use chat software, but if you have more questions or comments you can e-mail me. ^_^
inertia @ bonjourhoney.net
(remove spaces)

From:

I am thinking about what everyone said, and thinking.

Maybe I looked messy. Maybe my standards weren't set high enough for the way I looked.

What could I do to make some japanese friends?

It would be nice not to go alone next time.

: \

From: