Pondering....

[agentscuiy.livejournal.com]

I have noticed something commonly brought up in the Lolita community, and found it rather odd to me... Why does everyone make such a big deal out of "fabric quality"? Like, "That lace is so cheap!" or "That material looks like such bad quality".... People seem to bring it up when either 1) Trying to insult some designer or 2) Trying to stand up for some really expensive designer. Honestly, how many of you walk into clothing stores and fondle the fabric and pull on the seams and scrutinize every little bit of a freakin shirt? I know that you don't want to buy something that's going to fall apart after one washing, but why is it SUCH a big deal? You can buy cotton fabric at Wal-Mart and it will be just as wonderful as anything from Baby the Stars Shine Bright. Is this another sad attempt at proving one is Lolier than another?

EDIT!! Alright people, here we have a huge case of misinterpretation. My point was that most of the time people are going off on fabric quality they have no reason to. Through most pictures on ebay and/or websites, it is almost impossible to tell the quality of fabric. You need to feel it and see it with your own eyes. I know photography can make wonderful things out of terrible ones.. and vice versa. Just because the flash makes a fabric slightly shiny doesn't mean it's automatically crap, right? I think the only exception to this is the Lip Service Lolita line, where it is VERY apparent that you can see right through the dress. Basically I am saying people seem to be pointing out assumed fabric/lace quality for no reason other than to insult or praise something, when you really cannot tell through simple and most likely manipulated photographs.

Comments

[redainjel.livejournal.com]

Honestly, how many of you walk into department stores and fondle the fabric and pull on the seams and scrutinize every little bit?

*raises hand* I do that. When I'm buying something premade I check it over very thoroughly, especially if I have to plunk down full price. If it's something on clearance I'm less likely to do it, but well.. I've been known to do it often then too. When I buy just plain fabric, etc. by the yard I still look at quality, fiber content, and all sorts of things. So yeah, I scrutinize things, but I'm not above buying fabric at Walmart. Buying it from most fabric stores is paying FAR too much. Walmart has some of the few sensible fabric yardage prices around here.

[ex-iku616.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't complain about fabric, but I do NOT like crappily stitched clothing that will fall apart as I wear it. That's why I dislike a lot of what hot topic sells that isn't band shirts and whatnot. I've purchased a few dresses/skirts/etc from them, and the seams ripped incredibly fast, including some pants i bought there, in one day, four of the belt loops came apart, as well as the strap part for the "bondage straps". A shirt I got there got a huge rip up the side just from normal wear. From my experiences, hot topic's clothing are just kinda shoddy, thus why I am like "You're better off making it yourself, or buy it and be prepared to reinforce ALL the seams", because those are my experiences.

And it is SUCH a big deal because, fi you haven't noticed, most "loli" stuff is QUITE expensive. Why spend $50 on top that has really bad seams, uneven and mismatching lace, as well as an uncomfortable fabric? You are going to be wearing this, you are paying a LOT of money for this, you should be getting something top quality. That's why.

Why the drama, anyway? (Directed at you, btw)

[agentscuiy.livejournal.com]

Well I've had the exact opposite happen with me in Hot Topic. I've had one pair of bondage pants from there for about 5 years now and they still look new. I also have many shirts and nothing is falling apart or even showing signs of wear. Only thing I've bought from there that has, is a pair of PVC pants which the belt loops came off on, but that was because I tugged on them constantly.

And yes, Loli clothes are expensive, but how often do you order ANY kind of clothes from ANYwhere that have mismatched seams and so on? Maybe I've just had good luck... but unless you buy your clothes from "irregular" outlet stores or back alleys, clothes just don't *fall apart*. There are LAWS.

And why call this drama? I brought up a point, I'm not looking for a fight.

[agentscuiy.livejournal.com]

Yes but how many people know the "science of fabric"? It seems most people are just talking out of their butts, because most of the time they're talking about pictures and like you said, you just can't tell. I know what good fabric feels like... Making clothes to sell on ebay I make sure the fabric isn't too shiny or too see-through or too scratchy, because I know the fabric I choose will reflect the quality of my clothes. I can tell the difference between a 6500yen h.NAOTO shirt's cotton and a $10 top from the RAVE... but in the end as long as it doesn't fall apart (which has never happened to me from any brand anywhere), I don't think it should matter. So, you buy a loli skirt made from Wal-Mart fabric for $20 or a BSSB skirt for $100... is it really worth it just because your cotton was spun a different way?

[calistrisa.livejournal.com]

Thank gods for that, MK! Then again, how many people know you are a professional designer and can put them to ashes with your stuff :D

[nachthymn.livejournal.com]

God what the HELL do you people do?! Roll around in dirt and jump off buildings in your loli outfits?! Quality of fabric even if it's not the best shouldn't tear or rip unless you're insanely rough or trying to wear clothes that are...well to put nicely you're too fat for.

Sorry to half you people, but quality shouldn't matter if you're buying 'expensive' loli clothes. You are a consumer and therefor an idiot. Baby the stars shine bright and angelic pretty make a $50 profit from the clothes you buy. It's called overpricing and believe me half those clothes AREN'T as expensive to make as you kiddies may think.

[kasumi-ishida.livejournal.com]

It's called overpricing and believe me half those clothes AREN'T as expensive to make as you kiddies may think.

I agree... Although you have to consider that clothes made in Japan are going to be more expensive, because of the way things work there.. Why do you think you're spending $25 for jrock CDs? The CDs are just plain CDs, and the same as the CDs you'll find in the $3 markdown bin at Wal Mart, they just have jrock on them and are packaged with pretty pictures. Although I'll admit... I buy them for the pretty pictures and just to say I own the CD :B

Japanese people make more money and they spend more money on clothes, CDs, housing, etc. So when you're paying $50 for a skirt, to a Japanese person, that might not be all that much. Although I still think that you're better off buying a $10 skirt at Wal Mart and putting some lace on it in a pretty pattern and there ya go ;)

[k00kaburra.livejournal.com]

It's not overpriced; if it was then no one would buy it and BSSB would go out of business. Someone out there is willing to pay that amount, and just because you can't afford to or aren't willing to doesn't mean ya need to call the people who do pay that amount idiots. It is their choice, just as yours is to disregard the high-end fashions and possibly buy cheaper knock-offs in their stead.

[megaraptor.livejournal.com]

Simplified, drama-free response: cheap lace and cheap satin look bad.

[agentscuiy.livejournal.com]

Well of COURSE satin looks bad, there's no way it would look good ever. But I'm talking about people picking apart cotton and the like.

[matcha-pop.livejournal.com]

Actually, to a certain point, there is a difference in fabric quality. Go to your local fabric store sometime and take a look at what they have on the clearence table (overall, that is...sometimes you can find good stuff there ^^) and compair it to a fabric that is several times the price. Generally the cheaper stuff will be thinner and look flimsier. Sometimes the cheap stuff will even be somewhat see through. Even though walmart's fabric section has vastly improved in the past 5 or 6 years, I'm not sure if its -quite- up to the level of BtSSB.

I'm a big sewing nerd though, so I'm aware of this because I'm "in the field," sort of speak. Its understandable how someone could wonder about such a thing.^-^

[agentscuiy.livejournal.com]

Well actually I am quite an experienced seamstress myself.. I can tell the difference between bad fabric and good fabric, and when I make clothes to sell I make sure the fabric is good quality, like I stated in another reply. I know good cotton is going to cost you $8 a yard or more... but BSSB really doesn't use some super magical fabric that rules over all other fabrics. I got a dress from there and it was plain plaid cotton. Sure I couldn't see through it and it was soft, but in the end it was *just* cotton.

[delicious-souls.livejournal.com]

You can buy cotton fabric at Wal-Mart and it will be just as wonderful as anything from Baby the Stars Shine Bright.

Ok, I can say from experience that this is not true.Well, in my opnion it isnt.I am very picky about the quality of my dress/fabric.Thats why I dont buy GL stuff here in America, no offense..its jsut that the qaulity in Japan is alot better.The quality of the dress I have from Baby, The Stars Shine Bright is unbelievable.Not like anything at walmart.I dunno what it is about Japan..Im just so picky about what i buy when it concerns EGL clothing.I like it from Japan so much better..it jsut carries..a sort of essence with it,hehe.

but when it comes down to it, its all a matter of opinion...to each his own.

[agentscuiy.livejournal.com]

^^;;; Didn't you just buy a headdress from me?
Yes, the quality of Japanese brands are great, but if you're paying a small fortune for something it BETTER be great. You can also buy great clothes from SEARS and they're not going to fall apart... Japan isn't some magic fabric land. While I can't say anything about independant ebay seamstresses selling Loli stuff, I do my best to buy the best quality material to make my clothes too, without charging an arm and a leg. You're not paying for perfect quality fabric in Japan.. you're paying for a brand name, when it comes down to it.

[marle777.livejournal.com]

It's SUCH a big deal because the Elegant Gothic Lolita/Aristocrat fashions are all about elegance, which is a term that can find some level of synonymy with quality. Nothing of elegance ever looks cheap. Ever.

And you can absolutely tell the difference between cheap fabric and quality fabric in pictures. If you take a picture of Wal-mart cotton placed next to say Egyptian cotton, you will be able to see that one is thin and translucent while the other is heaver, has a thicker weave, etc. The same goes for comparing a major Japanese brand dress (such as BSSB, or Moi-meme-Moitie) next to a dress from many western sellers or the made-in-China brand Bodyline. You can tell the difference in quality.

The same goes for cheap lace; which in my own opinion the levels of quality are even more apparent that fabric. Polyester lace just outright looks cheap, there's no comparing necessary.

I don't think people bring up these things just to insult or praise designers, it just happens to be a major defining point of what makes an Elegant Lolita outfit look good. If you happen to only be referring to Gothic Lolita fashion (which is not the same as the Japanese born EGL), then quality may not be as important as GL is basically a westernized style which is more closely related to kinderwhore rather than EGL's modernized victorian elegance throwback.

[agentscuiy.livejournal.com]

Thank you for being the only person to post with a non-hostile, level-headed explanation!

Wal-Mart doesn't *just* sell cheap cotton though :) A lot of it is just low grade quilting fabric, yes, but they do also have nicer kinds... especially if the Wal-Mart has a big sewing department. Once when shopping out of state, I got the most comfortable, wonderful black fabric there I made several dresses with, that I found for $1 a yard on sale. I have yet to find a black fabric like it; everything is either too see-through or too stiff or too shiny. It's heavenly, and it came from Wal-Mart.

I do have a major problem with cheap lace though... My mom bought some stuff that looks like plastic and I hate it. I usually go for the nice mid-range cotton laces you can only seem to find on ebay. Because when it comes down to it, who is going to pay $40 for a headdress made with high quality $10 a yard lace? Limits have to be drawn somewhere.

[ashna.livejournal.com]

Cheap is generally crap.
I bought lace I liked and it's all fuzzy now. But the material for the skirt itself is lovely still. Me not knowing about quality at all I can STILL apreciate a well made outfit.
Also well designed is a big thing. I Hate clothes put together that have details that Don't add to the quality of the clothes. Putting on a bow just because some EGL clothes have alot of bows is just silly. Good quality clothing should have A Fabric that looks, feels, falls and everything else well. Depending on what you want out of the dress of course.
B A well made design that takes into acunt the type of fabric your using. A circle skirt made of satin with country/sweet lolita cotton lace and tons of cutsie bows? Just tacky. Satin is a more elegent fabric and isn't that stiff. Maybe if the satin was lined to keep the shape better, the lace was point lace and the bows in velvet ribbon? Maybe with a more smooth skirt design. A ruffle along the bottom?
I swear some people just don't take these things into concideration when designing their clothing lines. egl isn't just poofy skirts and ribbon.
Just my personal pet peeve on alot of Lolita on-line clothing stores. Wrong fabrics for plain boring and oftimes uninspired designs.
Add in poor cheap fabric? Absolutely horrible clothing people with common sence complain about.

[agentscuiy.livejournal.com]

I agree completely with all those points you brought up about people misinterpreting the style and making tacky conconctions of lace and ribbon. It's just that my original point, which I guess I didn't explain well enough, was that people make a big deal, calling fabric cheap, when they just can't TELL. I know someone tore apart one Western Lolita store's line on this community, and everyone jumped in on the bashing (when the seamstress was a member), and there was NO WAY by looking at the pictures you could tell if the fabric was "cheap" or not. I personally thought their stuff was a lot better than the satin monstrosities you see on ebay, but they were just so quick to insult.

[tigerbalmer.livejournal.com]

I've never raised the issue of judging other people's creations based on the materials before, but I think that at least for some people, they don't want an outfit that looks like a Halloween costume. A dress self made out of cotton, even if it is cheap cotton from Walmart, would be infinately better than something that looks like that flag tricot satin that cheap costumes are made out of... or anything that reminds them of that texture.

But then, for some people it is just perpetrating what happens in almost all subcultures--forming definitions and standards in order to form a boundary of who is in and who is not. That, I don't like, but hey, I don't label myself as in anything but my life.

All of the people who have complained about certain 'cheap things' would still, I think, express a lot of respect and admiration for any dress made by any member here, no matter what the materials. I think the issue is when someone is SELLING stuff with cheap materials, and yet it still costs a HELL of a lot of money (I mean, I wouldn't pay $50 for something out of cheap materials... heck, I wouldn't pay $30 for something with cheap materials because it's just not a great deal considering what you are getting)

[calliechan.livejournal.com]

Meh... fabric is fabric and lace is lace to me. I actually LOOK for the cheaper stuff, because I know it'll be about the same quality and I can't afford French lace that's 10 bucks a yard. And I definitely fabric shop at Wal-Mart. ^_^ It's not a big deal to me. But (I'm sure this has been said before) I've had bad experiences with North American goth/loli clothing falling apart on me after a few wears, so I'm skeptic. Although I'm impressed with the Japanese brands. They hold together well, even when I abuse them.

The other reason Japanese brands are expensive is economics, but... that's probably been said too. I just never read the other comments. Erk. >_O;;

[calistrisa.livejournal.com]

Well, I think when you are going to spend a great deal of money on something, the quality of the material and how it is constructed factors heavily into a person's decision. Or at least it does in my world.

I'm not going to pay $300, or $80, or even $60 for something made out of broadcloth, or the cotton you buy at Wal-Mart. Same factors for most satins or anything made out of rayon. But there are differences in these fabrics. Find Egyptian cotton or Belle cotton, compare them to the $2 a yard cotton at the Jo Anns, you can *feel* the difference.

Same goes for lace. I personally despise the lace found on spools at Wal-Mart, Jo-Anns, etc. Most EGL clothing in Japan is made with cotton lace, or a high grade woven lace.

It has nothing to do with proving oneself better, it's all about the quality of the clothing. You're going to pay more money for better fabric and construction. A lot of American companies selling Lolita-esque clothing go for the cheaper fabrics and therefore can cut the price (unfortunately, many people selling "Lolita" clothing online, go for the cheap fabric and STILL jack up the prices.)

Personally, it's not something I would buy. I'm very picky about my fabrics and clothing, even when going shopping at the mall. I do check out the fiber content of the clothing (and stay away from certain things like polyester) and look at the seems and such. I know at Charolette Russe I'm going to find cheap stuff, but for a cheap price. I know what I get when I'm buying it. Same as when I go to Express, or Lord and Taylor, I expect to pay more for something that looks better and will last longer.

I think people who sell clothing online should be very specific about the material they are using. By saying "cotton and lace" it can be any ammount of poor grade materials, or they could have gotten a deal on something very nice. There really *is* a difference between what BtSSB sells and the stuff you find at Wal-Mart. Trust me. I own some stuff from them, Victorian Maiden, MA+M, and Angelic Pretty. :)

[agentscuiy.livejournal.com]

Yes, but still my point was overlooked in your response and a lot was already said and replied to. I never intended to bring in the "Japanese brands are better than you" topic into it, because people in this community idolize Japanese brands like nothing else, and they would never say the lace and fabric were cheap even if they were.
Most of the time when people comment on the quality of fabric, they have no idea of what it's actually made of, and they can't feel it themselves. I KNOW quality is important and I own Japanese brands as much as anyone else, but it's not fair for people to judge the quality of other people's work just through a picture on an auction.

Gah, pardon if this sounds angry in any way... I'm tired.

[halonoir.livejournal.com]

A few words on the subject:

Clothing is always a matter of personal preference and budget. Not everyone is going to be pleased with the same thing. There is no right or wrong. You have those who prefer quality and those who prefer a good deal.

After formerly working as the assistant manager of a Jo-Ann fabric store, I can say that you DO get what you pay for when it comes to fabric. However, this does not mean that a dress made of a lighter weight cotton is worse than a heavier weight since EGL clothing generally has a lot of fullness to it.

For example: All satins are not the same. You have the cheap costume satin that comes out at Halloween and is disgustingly thin and shiney as hell at about $3/yd. You have the Baroque satin which is very shiny and heavier than the costume satin and is considered 'Prom Quality' at about $5/yd. Then you have the Casa Satin which is absolutely gorgeous as it is thick and more matte than most satins out there, it is considered 'Bridal Quality' and runs about $7/yd. And yes, while not many EGL dresses are made from satin, I do have all 9 G&LBs and have seen satin in there. Where am I going with this? Personal preference again. Same thing with cotton... personally I think straight cotton is much better than a poly/cotton blend but those who prefer more smoothness might say the opposite.

Speaking of personal preference, I am more disturbed by people acting like labor does not count for anything than by people complaining about the quality of material. I say this because I totally agree that you can't tell the quality of a material unless you feel it (except for the very obvious pics). However, when I say people saying things like 'I could make that dress for $30' its like NO KIDDING! Its YOUR 8 hours that are going into making it. Professional seamstresses who sew for a living make $10-$15 an hour on average.

Damn... this turned into a long few words :)

[eurolymius.livejournal.com]

This post scares me.

[agentscuiy.livejournal.com]

Me too. u_u I've created a monster.

[kurara.livejournal.com]

I partly agree with you.. But I think this has to do with the fact that we don't have the same types of fabrics as in Japan. I don't think it has anything to do with quality at all. Also some fabrics can look cheaper than others if they aren't handled in the right way... You know what I mean? Even silk or velvet can look really cheap and ugly if the person doesn't know what they're doing.. I think some American seamstresses use silky fabrics and other types of fabrics than cotton sometimes. But we can't forget that EGL has no "label".. Sometimes people call something EGL, but it's more of a baby goth type dress. I don't think it's less beautiful or anything, but it will lead people to say "ew! that's so ugly.. That doesn't look like something you would find in gothic lolita bibles.." .. Also we can't forget that the seamstresses sew things according to their own tastes. Of course, if you go to a store that mainly sells gothic stuff, the EGL stuff will be more on that side.. If you go to a store that sells lolita type clothes and cutesy clothes, the EGL stuff will be on that side. Of course it's not always like the stuff you find in the Japanese stores. ::shrug:: ^^;;

I really don't want elitism in the EGL community either, honestly.. I know how you feel and I don't like to hear people nitpick about stuff like that either. But I think that if someone is so into a type of fashion like EGL that they will get upset or elitist about it, instead of acting that way.. They should know the history of that fashion in both countriess.. By example, I'm pretty sure that there was a "baby goth" trend in America a while ago.. I don't think it wasn't as big as EGL, and it was quite different.. I believe the EGL stuff we get here is leaning on that side. So of course, it doesn't look EXACTLY like the things we see in "Angelic Pretty" or "BSSB" ^^;; ..

And I definitely agree with you about the photography too. Not everyone can afford a professional photograph to take pictures of the clothes they sell... x.x and usually it shows in the pictures.. I know because I've done it. A lot of the clothes I took pictures of to sell online looked really... cheap and bad looking.. ._.;;

[agitatorswaltz.livejournal.com]

Well I don't want to sound harsh, definitely not. I'm really upset at this entire post, but it kind of goes in a category of.. obvious.
One really should have thought about this before posting it. If the EGL list didn't think quality was such a big factor, then the list wouldn't talk about it so much. Quality is a big factor because well.. nobody wants to look cheap. It's like what marle777-san said, it's why it's called Elegant Gothic Lolita, not Cheap Halloween Satin Gothic Lolita, or Cheap Broadcloth Gothic Lolita. I admit, I shop at Wal-Mart, but I also don't really have a plethora of options in my area. That's another story though.
I don't want to pick on any online seamstresses, definitely not. But sometimes one can tell if a piece looks cheap or not, and that goes for *any* online company, not just a solo seamstress, be it a nice camera or not. As for getting what you paid for, yes. If you pay $30 thinking you're going to obtain the most gorgeous thing ever, then you have another thing coming. Also factor in the fact that the Japanese make more so it's not exactly crippling their budgets. I'm not saying the Japanese brands are The End All for quality, but if a Lolita is going to spend a hefty $500USD on an outfit from Angelic Pretty, then one should *better* expect some quality, be it a Lolita in the USA, a Lolita in Sweden, or a Lolita in Japan.
Eh~I've repeated a lot of things, but it upsets me to see such harshness in a community that *likes* to promote being polite to each other, especially since there are so few of us. You know, really forbid we try to support each other. Because other than my sister I certainly don't live around any other EGLs, or even remotely gothic people. *shrugs*

[clarice.livejournal.com]

I completely agree -- and it seems like this community has been *a lot* rudier lately than it normally is. I've seen several comments that just sort of make my heart hurt. If we -- girls who like to dress conservatively and prettily and have tea parties can't be nice to eachother, it doesn't seem like there's a lot of hope for the rest of society :/

As far as quality is concerned, there *is* a difference. If I want to make a white dress that you can't see through, I buy good quality gabardine or very high quality cotton. It's just like in premade clothing -- a $10 white dress shirt from Old Navy isn't necessarily worse than the $60 version from Banana Republic, but in general you can bet that the Banana Republic version will be double-stitched, better tailored, and wrinkle a lot less than the Old Navy version. You get what you pay for -- the same goes for Lolita. A Lolita, though, runs a greater risk of looking ridiculous than someone on a tight clothing budget. Poorly tailored dresses, cheap (i.e. polyester) lace, and wrong fabrics can make an otherwise cute outfit look silly and stupid. If it's worth doing in the world of lolita, it's worth doing right.

...It seems like you, the original poster, could do with some calming tea and thinking before you speak. I found your post rather rude and unneccessary. If you have an honest concern or thought about quality or quality maintenance, you could have ask nicely without insulting all of us here who do care about these sorts of things.

[xelyna.livejournal.com]

Dude, you've got it all wrong. Clothing is all about quality, so it's natural to look at the materials something is made out of before evaluating it. Personally it really irks me when some western person makes a half-assed lolita dress from cheap-ass fabric and lace and proceeds to rip some sucker off for $100. There is a huge difference in quality across brands and makers, no matter which country you're in. Basically, even in expensive shops over here that sell sleeveless tops and mini skirts to preppy types for $70+, they're still made in China and look cheap as hell. Something like that is made out of about 1/2 meter of stretch fabric that probably cost $5, plus 2 cents of sweatshop labour, and people pay big bucks for it.

When you look at the detail and quality of gothic lolita clothes, you can really see why they cost so much. They are made in limited season runs out of high-quality fabrics by people in Japan. Even the difference between brands is obvious- Metamorphose and BTSSB will have a skirt made of cotton with a synthetic lining and either synthetic or crocheted(sp?) lace. More expensive brands like Moi-meme-Moitie will have the skirt made of cotton with cotton lining and cotton lace which is exclusively designed by Mana and his cronies for the brand. Which is why a BTSSB skirt costs $200, and a MmM skirt costs $300.

So I guess, in conclusion, it's a good idea to evaluate a dress by the quality of the fabric, because it's what you're paying for. You don't want to be ripped off and end up with cheap crap.

[thunderwear.livejournal.com]

Hey Xelyna!

Of course. But it just seems to me like too many people in this community tend to eliticize BSSB and the like and simply refuse to believe that somewhere, something could be as good or perhaps better.

[thunderwear.livejournal.com]

People!

Buy clothing in your size, I GUARANTEE it won't fall apart! HAHAHA!

[agentscuiy.livejournal.com]

Amen sister! LOL!