This Is All Very Upsetting...

[miyu-sakura.livejournal.com]

My birthday is coming up, and I have some nice plans for it. I want to take photos, go out for food, shopping, and fun with my fellow Midwestern gothlolis. I am putting a lot of time, money, and energy into this event. However, because of the recent nastiness in the community, I feel that I want to cancel my plans... or at least not post the photos out of fear of being attacked by random, anonymous people. So I'm going to put this up first, and I want everyone to give their honest commentary on it. Don't hold back if you disagree, but don't be rude, and don't post anonymously. Voice your opinion, and don't worry if you aren't part of the majority.

First of all, I feel that many people don't really understand that EGL is ultimately a fashion statement and not a lifestyle. It has been stated many times that the Japanese gothic lolitas do not constantly dress in EGL clothing, nor do they sit around sipping tea all day and posing with their dolls. If you enjoy doing that, you're welcome to it, but you shouldn't take the movement overboard. Criticizing things which are clearly not EGL is acceptable. Many things on Ebay are very much not EGL, and are advertised as such in order to increase the likelihood of bidders. However, bashing another person for the fact that they are only a "weekend loli" or they have other interests outside of EGL is incredibly rude, prejudicial, and wrong.

Secondly, each person has their own interpretation and style. Some people prefer things directly from the Bibles while others like to mix styles. Some people can only afford thrift store finds or homemade clothes, while other people have platinum accounts on Yahoo! Japan. Everyone does their own thing the best way that they can. If someone posts a picture of themselves in a mini-skirt and a tube top, they're clearly in the wrong community. But is someone posts a picture of themselves in a circle skirt and a DIY blouse, they shouldn't be railroaded. Instead, one should tell them what you like and don't like about the outfit, and try to help them out. Help and resources should be freely offered and exchanged in place of vicious criticism.

Thirdly, the Bibles are not the word of God. They are guides. If someone steps outside of the "word" that doesn't mean they are wrong or out of line. There are many potential outfits that a person can make that the GLB's haven't covered, and as long as a person follows basic rules, then they should be appluauded for orignality. Traditionalists should also not be criticized since they help preserve the original styles even as the movement continues.

Fourthly, people take themselves far too seriously at times... which is a common problem among most subcultures. Because of the small, private nature of EGL, many people feel that they are "orginals" and that new people are "posers". This is common among goths, rockers, swingers, nerds, hip hop kids, gamers, and pretty much any other niche group you can think of... But guess what? We all started out as new kids at some point, and we all had our n00b questions, and n00b ideas. Instead of jumping down the throat of someone for liking something that's viewed as mainstream or "poser", people should try and introduce them to the more authentic and genuine things so that they can experience the full depth of the subculture.

And don't snub the mainstream either, because the more mainstream something because, the easier it will be to find things, and the less expensive they will be. For instance, when I was thirteen, I could only find manga in a few comic shops downtown. Now, I can walk into Borders and find everything that I want for cheap. Are there ten year olds reading DBZ in the manga section? Yes. Do I care? No, because the fact that a lot of people read DBZ makes Borders carry more manga in order to appeal to that branch of readers. After all, whereever they can make profit, they will... they're a business. And as long as I can get my copy of Peach Girl and Great Teacher Onizuka I don't care.

Finally, this community should ultimately be about fun and enjoyment, not side-swiping one another with cheap comments. I love people who will only wear clothes from Japan, just as much as my dear friends who make their own clothing. I still drool over their outfits, and I still coo over the cuteness and elegance. I enjoy looking at pictures, arranging events, and hanging out with everyone. If I can't have that then what's the point?

Cross-posted into metamorphique

Comments

[ubercookie.livejournal.com]

*claps her hands* wonderfully said!!!

[vinyacarkaiel.livejournal.com]

*applaudes.* I agree very much on everything you said there. That's all I can say.

[(Anonymous)]

*bows* ubercookie raye gave me linkie to the post, i read - and i would make u a queen if i could.

<3 Sunna.

[calistrisa.livejournal.com]

Thirdly, the Bibles are not the word of God.

I love that line, because it made me think how people are tacking the G&L bibles as if they were the real bible, interpretting it at their whim and acting as their way is the only right way... like so much of Christianity today! How amusing!!

And I am right up with you on that post.

[leatherkngs.livejournal.com]

I agree, very well said! I think everyone just needs to stop for a moment and lighten up, or stop thinking they are better than other people. Comments that are rude and nasty just need to stop, because firstly, you want people who are interested in japanese fashion/egl/what have you to come to the community and if they see all this fighting, well, why would they want to join? Secondly, no one likes someone who is rude and stuck up, so get over it and start helping someone in their outfit making rather than bashing them.

[memeloli.livejournal.com]

i think its safe to say majority of the things you said i totally agree with. I havent even wanted to post on this board becuz of the majority of crap that seems to be going on. Im pretty much o full follower of the saying "if you dont have anything nice to say then dont say anything at all". I mean if you dont like it and you feel you just HAVE to comment than make it a "how to make this look better" post not a "omg thats soooo not egl so ugly eww post". Im also totally in the catagory of if it's blatantly not egl dont post here,

and to defend those who have real reasons not to like hottopic or western fashions claiming to be egl, its really becuz they havnt got it right yet.

The Only thing that does piss me off about those who are new are the repeat asking of questions... i mean i dont care about the questions that are required to ask when your new but, cmon sometimes some one will have just post the damn question and another will come and post it again SCROLL DAMNIT SCROLL! its not that hard to just check to see if the question has been asked before.

Yeah...

[miyu-sakura.livejournal.com]

Yes, I definetly agree that Hot Topic can misinterpret fashion movements. But you can still get things like lacey glove, pretty stockings, and chokers there... so in that sense, it's nice to have those stores available even if just to find accessories.

And I don't like it when people don't do their homework either... There are many obvious, common questions that can be answered by going back a few pages or looking in Google. I need to think about making a gothloli FAQ.

Re: Yeah...

[vampyredea.livejournal.com]

Is that Gackt's beautiful eye that I spy?

[seeinglife.livejournal.com]

I think really, half the problem with this community is lack of an active mod. If people making posts about things already discussed at length could have their posts politely deleted with a link to an FAQ inserted on the memberpage or post in the community's memories, or auctions for not even EGL stuff not so politely deleted, it would be a very good thing.

[xmonsterbabex.livejournal.com]

[mako-anime.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you, 100%!! And very well said too ^_^. I hope you do still want to do the get-together for your b-day cause I very much want to come!! ^__^

R.S.V.P.

[miyu-sakura.livejournal.com]

Please R.S.V.P. me... I really need to know so that I can figure out who is coming and how much to get for the party and photoshoot... ^_^

Re: R.S.V.P.

[mako-anime.livejournal.com]

I sent you an email RSVPing when you first mentioned it actually, but I never got a reply back! I suppose I should send it again??

[dymentia.livejournal.com]

yet another person who is in agreement, right here! i thought the purpose of this community was the share ideas, photos, and information. and to generally chat with others who have similar interests - not to bash and belittle. anyway, there is nothing i can add that you haven't already said, so thanks. i can only hope this will help the community a bit. i would hate to have to stop reading

[koualecia.livejournal.com]

I'm in total agreement. Good job. Everything has been said that I think.

[seeinglife.livejournal.com]

First of all, I feel that many people don't really understand that EGL is ultimately a fashion statement and not a lifestyle.
Indeed. I quite dislike being told or reading that lolis "act in this manner," must be very cute and polite and modest and pure and, sorry, but no. Cute, of course, how can one in EGL not be cute? But if I am quite willing to cuss when I'm loli'd up should something make me want to and I do think there is sexuality in the overdone innocence and enjoy that aspect of gothic lolita, does that make me a "bad" loli or not a loli? I really don't think the answer is yes.


Some people can only afford thrift store finds or homemade clothes, while other people have platinum accounts on Yahoo! Japan.
I commonly hear this... "not everyone can afford the real thing straight from Japan." I hear it very often, and the truth is that hardly anyone can afford the actual designer Japanese items. It's a common accusation against "elitists" that nothing that isn't straight from Japan isn't good enough, but I've never actually seen anyone express that sentiment to my knowledge. Rather, I've only ever seen "elitists" put out by poorly assembled outfits, or outfits that have some slightly loli elements being called EGL that really are not of EGL style [which originated in Japan]. I'm sure some of my earlier outfits (satin! eeek!) horrified these elitists such as the members of Metamorphique; I'm honestly horrified by them as well (and Metamorphique is my preferred community of choice these days for all things loli). I'm sure that the horror was not that my hideous purple assemblage was sourced from thrift stores and Ebay, but that it wasn't really EGL.
That said...

Secondly, each person has their own interpretation and style. Some people prefer things directly from the Bibles while others like to mix styles....Thirdly, the Bibles are not the word of God. They are guides. If someone steps outside of the "word" that doesn't mean they are wrong or out of line.

Honestly, I think that the problem is too narrow an interpretation of what is in the Bibles. Granted, I only own #3, but I've seen extensive scans from most of the other ones, and browsed the actual Japanese brands' web shops. There is a VAST range of styles contained in the Bibles. And of course the bibles are Gothic AND Lolita Bibles, if I'm not mistaken... in other words, some outfits are Gothic, some are Lolita, some are Gothic and Lolita, but not all that are Gothic and Lolita may be Elegant Gothic Lolita. Some outfits may be Sweet Lolita, punky deconstructed lolita, schoolgirlish lolita, I've even seen some very rockabilly/swing/50s ish outfits. Sometimes I think the focus is too narrowed to just the Elegant Gothic and Sweet varieties of lolita.

And regarding mainstreaming... yes. Although it's a double edged blade (mainstreamed styles that were originally "underground" often get turned into something barely resembling the original and much less cool looking), it's GOOD. Being able to go into almost any store and finding at least two things I like is GOOD. I can get pretty, gothy, Victorian-esque jewelry almost anywhere now. I got a studded belt at Claire's. I found gorgeous EGA skirts at JC Penney and a lovely loli-able blouse at Target. Even Wal-mart carries fishnets. This is not a bad thing! Besides, when whatever the fashion statement that got mainstreamed and bastardies goes out of style, those who were doing it before it was cool will be even more recogonized. ;)

Yeah....

[miyu-sakura.livejournal.com]

Badly done is badly done. Most people in the EGL community aren't silly enough to say "only Japanese is good." I'm just trying to cover all my bases for those people who might believe that.

Personally, I like seeing handmade lolita clothing in the US because I just am amazed by the ability of some people. I have a friend in Chicago whose clothes I want to constantly steal because they're so cute...

As for the sexual aspect... well, my boyfriend doesn't know much about EGL outside of what I've told him. He's not into anything Japanese, to be honest, although he's open-minded and allows me him to drag him to see this and that and listens to my visual kei music in the car. He developed a dramatic appreciation of EGL when wore an outfit to his house one day... It was a perfectly modest dress with a headdress, but for some reason he went crazy.

XD

Re: Yeah....

[seeinglife.livejournal.com]

I like seeing handmade clothing, period. It appeals to me far more than anything from any store, even if I might drool over everything from Metamorphose... because if they went through the effort if making it for themselves, they must truly love the fashion and not just be buying it because it's there. Plus it's neat knowing no one will ever have the exact same item.

Hmm, too bad my boy doesn't like goth lolita like that. He thinks it's cute and such, but as for attraction, it's all about the Japanese schoolgirl outfit. He claims any guy who it an anime nut will come to regard such an outfit as the cutest (in a hot way) thing ever.

Re: Yeah....

[hazelasher.livejournal.com]

Re: Yeah....

[seeinglife.livejournal.com]

It's not the youthful aspect that gets him (it freaks him out if I actually act young), just the outfit. (And for proper effect it must include white leg warmers or loose socks.) He's morally opposed to school uniforms and hates the look of Western style school uniforms, yet loves Japanese style uniforms. Yeah, definitely the anime brainwashing.

Re: Yeah....

[darkshadelily.livejournal.com]

They're all a bunch of pedophiles.. -_-;

So no lolita should ever be without an arm charm!

-snicker-

*Lily*

[czol.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I think that the problem is too narrow an interpretation of what is in the Bibles. Granted, I only own #3, but I've seen extensive scans from most of the other ones, and browsed the actual Japanese brands' web shops. There is a VAST range of styles contained in the Bibles.
Yes! I was just about to post this in reply to the original post, then saw you just had. I too only own 1-3, & I was just having a browse through them literally just an hour or so ago. I was looking at the variety, thinking of all the "this isn't egl" posts. There was so much in there.

And regarding mainstreaming... yes. Although it's a double edged blade (mainstreamed styles that were originally "underground" often get turned into something barely resembling the original and much less cool looking), it's GOOD. [snips a few lines] Besides, when whatever the fashion statement that got mainstreamed and bastardies goes out of style, those who were doing it before it was cool will be even more recogonized. ;)
Plus, you can generally tell the cheap copies apart from the originals, & take into account how the person has put together their outfit, so you can generally tell who has the original, who just bought a tacky copy because "it's, like, cool, yeah", & who has bought a copy because they can't afford the original, but genuinely love the style.

[troglitite.livejournal.com]

*claps* I must say I agree with everything you said.

First of all, I feel that many people don't really understand that EGL is ultimately a fashion statement and not a lifestyle.

So true, seriously I'd like to know how many of those who believe it is a lifestyle, uphold it 24/7 - it'd be impossible.

I don't like the 'elitism' of many sub-cultures, this one included. The attitude that if you're clothes aren't from Japan you're not 'genuine' makes me feel sick.

To be honest, I'd like to see EGL mainstream... it'd be a welcome change ^_^

[kareninsilver.livejournal.com]

i agree!!!

[marle777.livejournal.com]

I have to say I agree with all points you have made wholeheartedly. ^__^

...

[biro.livejournal.com]

Agreed! It seems as though in everyone's search to be individual they end up blending together, and it's a shame. People should be encouraged, not put down for trying.

by the way, your icon is truly beautiful! wow!

[storknightmares.livejournal.com]

somewhat off topic, but there was an item on yahoo japan that stated "it is somewhat stained from having tea party with my friends". i found that very cute and funny.

[ashna.livejournal.com]

Gods I agree completely. I concider myself an elitist only because I like quality not poorly made items.
I'm all for mix and matching and not being exactly to what people concider egl.
I'd be surprised if meta lets you post this. They didn't let me post anything of the same vein.
But well said and most heartly agreed with!

[silentsecret428.livejournal.com]

I think the way of Lolita is too kind to consider these things; Very accepting and very respectful. =n.n= - i think if i am correct, this is why such a lovely scene is allowed to happen in the first place.

HOoEee~!~~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Of course we do not live in the same places. But calling it a fashion statement is probably a little wrong.. only because, the lolita etiquette is very important.. I think that we must let us not forget their is a different between japanese lolita and the western lolita, ne?
One way or another we must always be concerned with the definition- and hence... it leads to such things people do tend to forget.
ie- such terrible catiness

But i am sure things will clear up and we can accept people if not make them accept and respect others views =n.n=
we can all work together, there is always hope and lots of bright light, ne?

^~hai^~! =n.n=

:sigh:

[shi-sama.livejournal.com]

To address things in order. I agree, the EGL look is not a lifestyle. It could be, but that would just make life difficult. I couldn't do half the things I do dressed in EGL fashion. There had been a fair amount of judgement going around about that, and it needs to stop now.
Secondly, as far as style goes. I think the majority of the members have their own thing going, and that's great. But the point of EGL is to look young and doll like. There is a major difference between a well created egl ensemble (thrift store or no), and a circle skirt that happens to have a lot of lace sewn to it.
Third, the bibles are not the word of God, they are just a document of the movement of the trends. But they do illustrate the basic theme of the style. Do not though, that they are the Gothic AND Lolita bobles, not the GOTHIC LOLITA bibles, big difference. There's tons of different stuff in there. And fourth, everyone is new to a style at one time. I agree that members of this community are a bit harsh at times. We all need to calm down a bit. It's just clothes people. If someone does something wrong, tell them how they could improve, not why they're wrong. It's proper critique ettiquite for any medium...and the entire professional world follows it.

The fact is, egl style is becoming more widely recignized in the states, and it's not going to mirror japan. It can't, our cultures are just too different. Let everyone do their own thing. As long as it follows the principles of EGL (maybe they should be posted in the community info, hmmm?) let everyone be.

And as for you luv, please post your pictures, and don't let a few closed minded fools deter you.

*hugs*

[xelyna.livejournal.com]

Don't let any mean people who made comments here put you off having a fun time! That would only make them happy! Go out with your friends and have a great time, because that's what being a gothic lolita is all about^_^

You know, for all the talk of "elitists", I really haven't seen many of them here... In fact, I can't remember anyone being critisized for being a "weekend loli" at allO_o;; But maybe I don't pay close enough attention^^;;

Now, seeing as you're a member of Metamorphique, you should know that we aren't so serious about the bibles... in fact, a lot of us love hand-made clothes and indies brands just as much- as long as they follow the constraints of gothic lolita fashion. It's not to say it's a strict style- it's just that once you alter it too much, it CEASES to be gothic lolita! It becomes a different fashionO_o;; I'm all for experimentation (I do it a lot myself), but there are some rules of the fashion that need to be followed before you go too far into making something else.

Re: *hugs*

[totodedum.livejournal.com]

as long as they follow the constraints of gothic lolita fashion. It's not to say it's a strict style- it's just that once you alter it too much, it CEASES to be gothic lolita! It becomes a different fashionO_o;; I'm all for experimentation (I do it a lot myself), but there are some rules of the fashion that need to be followed before you go too far into making something else.

brava! very good point and very well said.

[spiralstairs.livejournal.com]

Danke! I was getting hysterical about it before, but I've calmed down. Honestly, now I don't care so much as I did before, but I'm still not particuarly open if you just wear a black t-shirt and eyeliner and call that EGL. ^_^()

Your post reminded me of a LOTR clique called 'fandom is fucking funny'. Basically, we all take ourselves too seriously and need to laugh about it.

[ex-pantheria458.livejournal.com]

Very well said...

[yapipie.livejournal.com]

Well, said. I can't add much to what people have already said in response. What I feel is pretty much there :)

But what I especially like is this:
If someone steps outside of the "word" that doesn't mean they are wrong or out of line. There are many potential outfits that a person can make that the GLB's haven't covered, and as long as a person follows basic rules, then they should be appluauded for orignality.

Usually I follow jsut the basics and then put my own mix into it. Sometimes out of mood, but mostly because I'm in a tropical country so walking around in a big poofy dress with long sleeves and a cape would not exactly do me well.

[zoloft.livejournal.com]

Huzzah! Very well said! :}